Best/worst holes

[Jim Hoak]

When I read about people saying that a hole is the best or worst at a course, I am reminded of something that a friend had us do once.  We had just completed playing a great course, and he proposed the following exercise--he gave each of us (5 plus caddies if I recall) a scorecard and had us mark each hole with a number of 1 through 18, from best hole to worst.  He then compiled the answers and then over lunch we discussed/argued the results.
On this course, there was wide disagreement about the best and worst holes.  And his contention was that wide dispersion of results showed that a course was great.  He felt that a lack of agreement showed the strength of all the holes, and that if there were agreement, that would show that some holes were truly weak and lessen the overall value of the course.
Any of you ever done this?  And do you agree with that conclusion?

[JESII]

I would think a variety of answers for best hole implies an interesting course...but not necessarily great. Although...every great course would have to be considered interesting...

[John Kavanaugh]

Any course where you ask a caddie to express an opinion after the round must truly be a great course.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think such a result says more about the people than about the golf course. It suggests that they are more concerned with their 'own' answer than with the 'right' answer, more interested in their 'experience' of the architecture than with the architecture itself --
which, IMO, is as it should be. When there's an unanimity of opinion, it suggests to me that, for better or worse, the golf course/golf hole has managed to draw the attention to 'itself', to the field of play instead of to the actual playing.

[Greg Smith]

Just to be devil's advocate, then....

Looking at play in US Opens for instance, I think that the Woods/Mediate duel in 2008 was an example of stirring play during a national championship -- if not THE most stirring.  Certainly a memorable Open for the play itself, no question.

Yet, you certainly can't say that Torrey Pines is anywhere near to being a architecturally pleasing Open venue.  We would all agree that it absolutely is not on the same planet as Oakmont, Shinnecock, Merion, Winged Foot, Pebble, etc.  You could also make the statement that the architecture of TP did nothing to affect/enhance/detract from play during that 2008 Open -- in other words that it was an architectural non-entity.

So if emphasis on play is the thing, why do we even need great holes or great golf architecture?  I submit that for many -- and certainly many on this site -- "experience", meaning interaction with the architecture,  is at least as important as the play itself.

[Peter Flory]

I'd be interested in seeing candidates for worst hole in America. 

[Greg Smith]

Oh, gosh, I know just the one.  I don't remember where in the USA it was, but I saw it in an old thread about bad holes.

It was a 7th hole somewhere IIRC, a par-4.  It bent back on itself about 120 degrees at maybe 210 out -- a forced layup -- then you had to fire BACK on that angle to get to the green.  Of course, the hole was in a forest, with thick woods blocking out choices in any direction -- and everything was narrow as a footpath.

Positively unbearable.  I'll have to see if I can find it.

[Jim Nugent]

I'd be interested in seeing candidates for worst hole in America.

I suspect that for many average-ish golfers, #17 at TPC Sawgrass is in the running.  Plenty of them simply can't finish the hole.  Think I've read that some guys hit a dozen or more balls in the water before picking up. 

Interesting that George Peper and the editors of Golf Magazine chose that hole as one of the four best par 3's in the world. 

[Peter Flory]

Oh, gosh, I know just the one.  I don't remember where in the USA it was, but I saw it in an old thread about bad holes.

It was a 7th hole somewhere IIRC, a par-4.  It bent back on itself about 120 degrees at maybe 210 out -- a forced layup -- then you had to fire BACK on that angle to get to the green.  Of course, the hole was in a forest, with thick woods blocking out choices in any direction -- and everything was narrow as a footpath.

Positively unbearable.  I'll have to see if I can find it.

The course that I grew up playing had at least 2 of the top 10 worst holes in America in my opinion. 


Your description reminds me of one of them. 


It was a horseshoe shaped par 5.  The green was about 240 yards from the tee.  But it was a big risk to try to drive the green because of the interior OB.  It was also difficult to bounce the ball through the interior OB because they dumped tires all throughout the interior of the hole to block the ball.  So, the traditional route was to block a tee shot right.  Then turn 90 degrees left and make sure you block your 2nd shot right.  Then you'd have to try to hit the tiny green from about 130 yards out.  Luckily this hole was lost to housing in the mid 80s. 


They had another gem that was a par 4 of out 405 yards.  This hole was built as a replacement to the above mentioned hole.  The challenge was that there was a pond from about 200 to 300 off the tee that took up 90% of the fairway.  You had 10 yards on each side of the pond if you wanted to try to squeeze by it.  So, the play was to take a mid iron off the tee and then blast in a long iron or fairway wood.  Many weaker players couldn't carry the pond even after laying up and would just hit a few in and then illegally drop on the other side.  There was also a creek over the rock hard green to punish any overplay.  Oh, and I forgot about the OB that hugged the right edge of the entire fairway. 


There was also a par 5 that was so tight that our high school coach mandated that everyone on the team tee off with a 9-iron.  The landing zone was 13 yards wide.  Interior OB right, pond left, and a crossing creek.  The only redeeming quality of the hole was the snack shop/ halfway house that came after it. 

[Tom_Doak]

I'd be interested in seeing candidates for worst hole in America.

I put a rundown of the 18 worst holes I'd ever seen in the original Confidential Guide.  I have not reprised that for the new edition.


My first thought on seeing your question was the par-five 11th at St. Andrews GC, Yonkers, NY, a hole added by Jack Nicklaus' firm to make room for real estate on the property.  The first two shots are semi-blind with death to the right -- a bad slice might wind up over the trees onto the Saw Mill Parkway far below -- and though it's short enough to go for the green in two, you would just be firing off into space to try it.


I attended the Centennial of Golf celebration there in 1988, and after playing the hole, a certain Hall of Famer whom I won't name stopped on the way to the next tee, turned around to look at it, and exclaimed "That is the worst hole I have ever played in my life!"  So, it's got two votes for the honor.

[Tom_Doak]

On this course, there was wide disagreement about the best and worst holes.  And his contention was that wide dispersion of results showed that a course was great.  He felt that a lack of agreement showed the strength of all the holes, and that if there were agreement, that would show that some holes were truly weak and lessen the overall value of the course.
Any of you ever done this?  And do you agree with that conclusion?

I used to ask the participants at the Renaissance Cup to name their three favorite holes, and I was pleased when we got a variety of answers.  [One course came up with sixteen nominees.]  But, there are certain properties where you're just going to have clear favorites, based on the setting of a particular hole, or history.  Riviera has lots of great holes, but everyone today is going to say number ten, for fear they'll be branded an idiot for not parroting the company line.  That says nothing bad about the rest of the course ... just about the people who rate them.


Bottom line, your own opinion of the course is the only one that should matter, to you.  And I shouldn't worry too much about it, as long as my own opinion of the holes is good.

[Edward Glidewell]

I suspect that for many average-ish golfers, #17 at TPC Sawgrass is in the running.  Plenty of them simply can't finish the hole.  Think I've read that some guys hit a dozen or more balls in the water before picking up. 

Interesting that George Peper and the editors of Golf Magazine chose that hole as one of the four best par 3's in the world.

I played a course this weekend which had a really horrible hole that was like a Frankenstein version of the Sawgrass 17th, and may be the worst hole I've ever played.


It was a par 5 with a very large pond. I'm not sure how far out the pond was from the tee, but I drove my ball down the middle of the fairway and it bounced all the way through into the water -- I don't think it was more than 260-270. There's a lay up area of fairway jutting out into the pond after the first part of fairway ends, but it's not a very big landing zone and it's got water on three sides. If you hit a tee ball 10-15 yards short of the water, the hole would then ask you to either try a 220 yard shot to an island green or hit a 100 yard lay up over water to a pretty small landing area and then have another 100 yards from there to an island green.


Funny thing is, the rest of the course was actually fun and I'd go play it again even with that awful hole.


Here's a diagram (not all that accurate -- it makes the water look smaller and the lay-up area look bigger than they actually are) and a couple of photos from the course website:

[Peter Flory]

There is one at Oak Grove Golf Course in IL that is sort of like that, but not quite as horrible.


It is known as the "Anaconda".  It's only a 450 yard par 5, but it plays difficult because you're basically island hopping the entire way.  It is a nightmare for tournament play as half the field is waiting to hit the green in 2 and the other half is searching for their golf balls and arguing about whether they are sure that it entered a hazard or not. 


This hole makes me skip any qualifier that is schedule at the course because I know that there will be a massive traffic jam there. 

[Matthew Rose]

In Denver, these are my worst five:

Aurora Hills #10
Kennedy (Babe Lind) #6
Legacy Ridge #6
Legacy Ridge #18
Thorncreek #16 (thankfully this one is being renovated)

Interestingly enough, they are all par-fives except the Kennedy one.

[Ira Fishman]

Re the OP, my guess is that Congressional Blue would draw a dispersion of picks for best hole, but I would not agree that it is a great course even though it does have a number of very good holes. So for a sample of one, the methodology does not hold in my opinion.


Congressional is also my answer for worst hole I have played (and I have played a lot of bad ones). Number 10 is artificial in every way, all of them bad. Par 3 all water carry, bifurcated green with out of proportion slope, back bunkers that make a long miss as problematic as hitting it in the water. I will confess that my ranking is influenced by the high ranking the course gets.


And btw, I do think it is overall a very good course, just one that is overrated.


Ira

[Jim Nugent]

Ira, did #10 used to be #18 during the US Open Ernie Els won at Congressional? 

[Ira Fishman]

Yes, played in other direction. They rerouted when USGA insisted on finishing on 17 if course would get another US Open. Or so the tale goes.


Ira

[thomaslaffont]

Is it fair to assume that the more strategic the golf course, the wider the disagreement about its hole would be? I'd be very curious to know which courses have the great disparity in opinions.

[Rick Lane]

The 17th hole at Jonathans Landing Village Course in Jupiter Fla is the worst hole I have played.   Par five to an angled fairway that is blind because you are hitting over the intercoastal waterway, and the mangroves are five feet tall and block your view of the ball landing.    So you hit, and have no idea if a) you cleared it, or b) went too far into the water on the other side. If you DO happen to find your ball, you now have to hit over the intercoastal again, to a green that is ~275 yards away, with the water pinching on the right side.  To get to your second shot, you have to hop on a little ferry to take you across the intercoastal.  Most times, you don't actually finish the hole.....

[Bruce Katona]

Worst Holes


All 18 at Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge.


Tom Doak could write several chapters in his next book about what should not have occurred here.  There is no fix for the place.

[V. Kmetz]

My first thought on seeing your question was the par-five 11th at St. Andrews GC, Yonkers, NY, a hole added by Jack Nicklaus' firm to make room for real estate on the property.  The first two shots are semi-blind with death to the right -- a bad slice might wind up over the trees onto the Saw Mill Parkway far below -- and though it's short enough to go for the green in two, you would just be firing off into space to try it.

I attended the Centennial of Golf celebration there in 1988, and after playing the hole, a certain Hall of Famer whom I won't name stopped on the way to the next tee, turned around to look at it, and exclaimed "That is the worst hole I have ever played in my life!"  So, it's got two votes for the honor.

I think you're referencing the 12th... but no one could blame you, for at America's original St. Andrews, the pickings for a worst hole are plentiful... It is positively shocking that an important heritage course such as this is just about on one of the worst pieces of property imaginable for golf...and this is (technically if you include the Reid Lake Ave  course of Feb 1888) the 5th site of this club...


It's not Nicklaus' fault either for this site has been in use since 1897 and was/is an abomination before they made an alpine housing development out of it in 1980. The Apple Tree and Odell Farm courses before it were just as bad playing along a vicious mountain, but they were 6 and 9 holes...


Oh and "walking" purists? Go f' yourself...you'd be asking for a cart after #9...not even an Army ranger can make 36 on this bad boy....and no one tries.


Given the state of the course and club (which is a living museum to penal, false, costly architecture on ill-chosen ground) it is hard to believe that the elite original crust of WASPy/Scottish industrial wealth, like Andrew Carnegie, landed here and that such a place ever held importance as a spring of the American game.


cheers   vk

[Conley Hurst]

I suspect that for many average-ish golfers, #17 at TPC Sawgrass is in the running.  Plenty of them simply can't finish the hole.  Think I've read that some guys hit a dozen or more balls in the water before picking up. 

Interesting that George Peper and the editors of Golf Magazine chose that hole as one of the four best par 3's in the world.

I played a course this weekend which had a really horrible hole that was like a Frankenstein version of the Sawgrass 17th, and may be the worst hole I've ever played.


It was a par 5 with a very large pond. I'm not sure how far out the pond was from the tee, but I drove my ball down the middle of the fairway and it bounced all the way through into the water -- I don't think it was more than 260-270. There's a lay up area of fairway jutting out into the pond after the first part of fairway ends, but it's not a very big landing zone and it's got water on three sides. If you hit a tee ball 10-15 yards short of the water, the hole would then ask you to either try a 220 yard shot to an island green or hit a 100 yard lay up over water to a pretty small landing area and then have another 100 yards from there to an island green.


Funny thing is, the rest of the course was actually fun and I'd go play it again even with that awful hole.


Here's a diagram (not all that accurate -- it makes the water look smaller and the lay-up area look bigger than they actually are) and a couple of photos from the course website:

I used to play a college tournament at this track. I agree, the rest of the course was fun (if really disjointed and a brutal walk). But this hole always stood out as utterly ridiculous. Each shot could either end up on a tiny island of fairway/green, in the water, or out of bounds. It felt like playing the 17th at Sawgrass three times in a row. I remember once hitting 4 iron off the tee, P wedge lay up, and 8 iron on.

[Kalen Braley]

Conley,


Just looked at the aerial....the tee shot looks at least doable, but I don't know how the average 16 capper can finish that hole even some of the time without being a complete round wrecker...

[Matthew Rose]

So that's basically a par-five with the third shot being the 17th at Sawgrass. Who's idea was THAT?

[Matthew Petersen]

In Denver, these are my worst five:

Aurora Hills #10
Kennedy (Babe Lind) #6
Legacy Ridge #6
Legacy Ridge #18
Thorncreek #16 (thankfully this one is being renovated)

Interestingly enough, they are all par-fives except the Kennedy one.

Man, that hole at Kennedy is BAD.


The Aurora Hill one is more just goofy. It's dumb, but not unplayable. Just crazy that the only realistic way to play it is, like 7-iron / 5-iron / wedge.


I recall the badness of Legacy Ridge 6, but I don't remember anything being wrong with 18. Did they do something to it?