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thomaslaffont

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« on: May 05, 2018, 10:28:58 AM »
Those fortunate enough to have played Cypress Point are lucky indeed and the course never disappoints. Yesterday, I was having a debate with a friend on the "worst" hole at Cypress. After some back and forth we settled on #10. It is a straightforward 476 yard par 5 and the 16 handicap hole. It is the least strategic hole the course offers as well as its best opportunity for birdie.


Some might point to the 18th but personally I'm a big fan of 17 and 18 despite their unusual setup. Each forces the golfer to think both on the tee box and the approach shot. Their difficulty is less in the shot that needs to be executed but in the obstacles that will no doubt be in the golfer's mind as they execute their shot. I find them a tough mental test to any player as they complete their round. In that spirit, they are a fitting finale to one of the world's best strategic golf courses.


Any other opinions?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2018, 02:10:19 PM »
I always enjoy this exercise. I think about my favorite ten or so golf courses and feel like there's a specific quality they all have. I've called it different things in the past: ebb and flow, intimacy and grandeur, big and small, uppers and downers, foie gras and cheeseburgers. Cypress may--more than any of my other favorites--demonstrate this quality. Having a variety of setting combining a change in difficulty while keeping a central theme to the course is in my mind, the highest form of golf architecture. I think of places like Ballyneal, Riviera, National, and Friars Head as examples of this concept. Interestingly enough I don't think other stalwarts like Pine Valley, Augusta, or Oakmont demonstrate this quality as well as other lesser ranked courses.


So in identifying the "weakest" hole on courses with such disparate physical settings, hole shapes, and shot requirements, I think it helps to ask about purpose.  First, figure out what you think is the hole of least interest or quality and then ask what it's purpose is. At Cypress Point, I think your answer of #10 is pretty astute. It is a bit mundane for the reasons you state. After three holes of pretty intense decision making with small targets and bad consequences for a miss, 10 is a hole that lets off the gas, opens your world up a bit compared to 7-9, and allows a breath before the run to the ocean. But in its capacity as a hole that goes back uphill away from the ocean, allows the routing to get to a full 18, and also allows a reprieve for the players, it's a great hole.


So is 10 the least interesting or exciting hole on potentially the worlds greatest course? Maybe. But does the golf hole serve a purpose and accomplish its purpose well? I think yes. Which is to say that it may be lesser hole compared to others, but it works beautifully.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 03:55:48 PM »
Having played here close to 20 times I don't think there is a bad hole.  To me it's more of what doesn't fit your eye.  If that's the case, 14 is a hole I just dread. The semi blind uphill 2nd shot is awkward and going over the green is just dead. Interesting enough I had this conversation with Nick Price and he thought the 14th was the best hole on the course...


I'm sure the 18th will get a few votes.





Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 10:48:31 PM »
I thought is was a toss up between 2 and 11. Both real good holes but for Cypress, kind of flat and uninteresting (to me).


This topic will come up this year either before, during or after the US Open at Shinnecock Hills GC.


The holes at both courses are just phenomenal.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 08:10:58 AM »
Who was the ugliest supermodel at the last Victoria's Secret fashion show? ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 09:07:51 AM »
I have been thinking about this for the past few days. In reality I can't come up with a hole that is at the worst excellent. I actually like 18. The only hole I thought was only excellent is ten. After the excitement of 5-9, ten gave me time to breathe. Placed where it is, however, is perfect. The exhilarating finish of 13-18 follows. There is not a hole on the course I'd even think about improving.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 09:17:46 AM »
I thought is was a toss up between 2 and 11. Both real good holes but for Cypress, kind of flat and uninteresting (to me).


This topic will come up this year either before, during or after the US Open at Shinnecock Hills GC.


The holes at both courses are just phenomenal.


It is definitely not 2! 2 is a absolutely brilliant!

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 09:21:17 AM »
I always enjoy this exercise. I think about my favorite ten or so golf courses and feel like there's a specific quality they all have. I've called it different things in the past: ebb and flow, intimacy and grandeur, big and small, uppers and downers, foie gras and cheeseburgers. Cypress may--more than any of my other favorites--demonstrate this quality. Having a variety of setting combining a change in difficulty while keeping a central theme to the course is in my mind, the highest form of golf architecture. I think of places like Ballyneal, Riviera, National, and Friars Head as examples of this concept. Interestingly enough I don't think other stalwarts like Pine Valley, Augusta, or Oakmont demonstrate this quality as well as other lesser ranked courses.


So in identifying the "weakest" hole on courses with such disparate physical settings, hole shapes, and shot requirements, I think it helps to ask about purpose.  First, figure out what you think is the hole of least interest or quality and then ask what it's purpose is. At Cypress Point, I think your answer of #10 is pretty astute. It is a bit mundane for the reasons you state. After three holes of pretty intense decision making with small targets and bad consequences for a miss, 10 is a hole that lets off the gas, opens your world up a bit compared to 7-9, and allows a breath before the run to the ocean. But in its capacity as a hole that goes back uphill away from the ocean, allows the routing to get to a full 18, and also allows a reprieve for the players, it's a great hole.


So is 10 the least interesting or exciting hole on potentially the worlds greatest course? Maybe. But does the golf hole serve a purpose and accomplish its purpose well? I think yes. Which is to say that it may be lesser hole compared to others, but it works beautifully.


Yup! You can add Pinehurst No 2 to that group as well. Having spend so much time down here now on a few projects and been around it so many times I’m always asking people their favorite and least favorite and never get the same answers.




Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 10:08:18 AM »
This is definitely an only-on-GCA kind of discussion.

WW

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 10:20:37 AM »
This is definitely an only-on-GCA kind of discussion.
WW
From the outside looking in I was thinking something similar. If the context is strictly architecture *as* architecture, I'm not surprised that a Par 5 is in the running for the worst/least interesting hole. But in the context of architecture as a field of play (ie in the service of the *game*), it makes sense to me that folks like Ben and Tommy would beg to differ.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 10:24:03 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 06:39:53 PM »
While I think several holes being mentioned for best/favourite is a positive, I am not sure the same holds true for worst/least favourite. I am very surprised that five holes have been mentioned by practically as many people offering an opinion.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2018, 12:41:17 AM »
I have only had the privilege to play it once.  However, based on that one play, I can never understand why the 1st is never mentioned in this conversation?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2018, 10:52:37 AM »
I have only had the privilege to play it once.  However, based on that one play, I can never understand why the 1st is never mentioned in this conversation?

I was thinking that would be my reluctant pick if the 18th were not an option. 

The reason is that I didn't find much strategic interest in it.  Just seemed like a gentle handshake with a completely stress free tee shot and a receptive green. 

But it's tough to dislike a downhill par 4, especially as an opener.  Also, the setting is so magnificent that it's still shockingly attractive at that point in the round.  You never take the setting for granted, but as the shock wears off, the holes get better and better until the famous crescendo. 

And I even have trouble saying the 18th is the worst hole, because I believe that it could be in the top half if it had some spacing. 


I will just vote present. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2018, 11:13:51 AM »
I see several posts in no one has actually voted for 18, so I will....but with an asterisk.


Its only the worst hole in its current form.  If it was opened up again and restored to what Dr.MacK had intended, it would not be the worst hole, not by a long shot.  Its just so out of character with the rest of the course where you have so much room to work on hole after hole and seems claustrophobic in comparison...


P.S.  Only played CPC once but I though 14 was fantastic. Way more interesting hole than what it looked in pictures...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 11:15:56 AM by Kalen Braley »

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 12:14:14 PM »
As a practical question, would there be any impediments to removing a few of those trees if they wanted to?  i.e. are there preservation ordinances or anything like that? 

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 04:55:54 PM »
I see several posts in no one has actually voted for 18, so I will....but with an asterisk.


Its only the worst hole in its current form.  If it was opened up again and restored to what Dr.MacK had intended, it would not be the worst hole, not by a long shot.  Its just so out of character with the rest of the course where you have so much room to work on hole after hole and seems claustrophobic in comparison...


P.S.  Only played CPC once but I though 14 was fantastic. Way more interesting hole than what it looked in pictures...


+1, including the PS


The thread prompted me to (once again) look at Google Earth.  I can see why some chose 10 and even 11, but when you revisit the brilliance of the 7-8-9 loop and the 12-14 routing, hard to criticize 10 or 11. Takes golfer back through inland terrain before catapulting him or her to the dunes and coast. Plus the cookies at 11 are off the chain.


Ira

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 10:03:58 PM »
The worst hole at Cypress Point, by far, is the 20th Hole (the one after you leave the 19th Hole and get in your car)

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 10:11:45 PM »
For someone who’s never played there, the answer to this query seems obvious — it has to be 18, because then your round is over

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2018, 10:20:09 PM »
For someone who’s never played there, the answer to this query seems obvious — it has to be 18, because then your round is over


Mark,
It has been said that Cypress is the best 17 hole course in the world etc... but you have to get back to the clubhouse somehow and its located up the hill (and lets not forget you just played #15-17). #18 is a very demanding hole in that it tells you how to play it. You simply have to hit it in the right spot. The previous 17 holes offer many options and so 18 is unique on the course.


But then there is that bit about your round being over and thats true, but the 19th hole at Cypress is amazing. Sam's Special is special.


As I was alluding to in my prior post, its when you get in your car you the worst hole of all - the hole in your heart of leaving such a magnificent place!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:22:54 PM by Evan_Green »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2018, 11:28:22 AM »
P.S.  I should also add that every single hole was somewhere in the "pleasantly surprised with this hole" to "this is way better than I thought" range....except for number 16.


I had seen so many pictures of it for so many years before hand, you pretty much know what you're getting and then there it is.  And i'm not saying its a bad thing, it just wasn't "better than expected" like pretty much all the rest of them.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2018, 12:09:19 PM »
For me there was a "biggest surprise hole." Number 15. When I played it I had never seen or heard of the majesty of 15. Walking from 14 across the road and turning the corner, I thought I had seen the most beautiful and perfectly designed hole in history.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 12:58:50 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2018, 12:37:24 PM »
Fo me there was a "biggest surprise hole." Number 15. When I played it I had never seen or heard of the majesty of 15. Walking from 14 across the road and turning the corner, I thought I had seen the most beautiful and perfectly designed hole in history.


Tommy,


Agreed in full, that one blew me away too, so much better than I had imagined.  The other holes that did this for me were:


4
5
9
12-14
17

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2018, 09:46:29 PM »
We are talking the best course I have ever played, so everything is relative: #1 through #15 is just pure joy, one hole better than the other, reaching a climax on #15. #16 is fantastic and unique, but I am not sure I would want to play that hole every day in a medal competition. #17 is puzzling, I cant say I like the tee shot. #18 is the weakest.


If I had to limite my golf game to 15 holes a day, CPC would be my first choice, no doubt.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2018, 11:35:55 PM »
18
It's all about the golf!

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the worst hole at Cypress Point?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 06:49:35 PM »
#16 is fantastic and unique, but I am not sure I would want to play that hole every day in a medal competition.


I have the feeling that most mortals would ultimately realize that they'd average a lower score by laying up to the left, per the original intent. 


But you have some serious self discipline and probably aren't much fun to hang out with if you do that as a guest on your first play.