Baltimore CC (Five Farms East)!

[CHrisB]

Had the opportunity to play Baltimore CC (Five Farms East) on Monday; it is Tillinghast (1926) with restoration by Silva in 1991 and recent work by Keith Foster that included altering green slopes on 3 or 4 holes, and adding a few tee boxes (don't know what other, if any, changes he made).

Some thoughts from a first glance:
1. The green on the par-4 10th is an unbelievably small target for a 430-yard hole, with water short-left, deep bunker right and green sloping hard toward right-to-left, with no real run-up option. Amazing shot into that green.
2. Favorite holes were the par-3 13th with a small target and a great tree (yes, a great tree) short right and another short left, followed by the Hells 1/2 Acre par-5 14th where a layup just clearing the cross bunkers will catch a slope and run an additional 50 yards.
3. Also enjoyed the sharp downhill dogleg left par-5 6th, where the ideal tee shot goes directly over the maintenance barn, and the short par-4 7th, with a slanting, rolling fairway doglegging left to a steeply sloping two-tiered green.
4. I thought the 8th and 18th were ordinary par-4's compared to the others, which as a set I really enjoyed playing. The 17th was a fun par-3, uphill over a valley with a steep green, but looked more like a modern hole than the others.
5. The green slopes on #'s 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 were severe enough that missing the green above the hole would almost surely lead to losing a shot. On many holes, though, especially on #'s 2 and 15, missing the green short means that the ball will funnel way down the hill, leaving a tough recovery pitch or run-up.
6. The fairway slopes on #'s 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 14, 15, and 16 were fun and dictated what type of shot and what line to choose off the tee.
7. The course plays long for its yardage because of several uphill approaches, only two par 5's (both over 580), and an abundance of par 4's in the 440 range.

The course, the setting, the wonderful rolling property, and some great weather made the day very enjoyable. I would highly recommend BCFFE and am curious to read your opinions on the course...

[david h. carroll]

Chris--there are a number of us here who are members...I wish you had looked us up...I'll post an email I sent to Patrick Mucci which explains the exact changes, etc.

[david h. carroll]

Here's the email to Mucci:


Patrick—thanks for the good interest and questions.  Keith Foster worked very well with our super over the course of last winter.  Project took a bit longer than expected due to harsh winter and spring.  As to current alterations, let me do a hole by hole for you with a note also towards future alterations still under consideration:

 

#1         added new back tee (15-20yds) and leveled other tees, and for the future, the right fairway bunker may be pushed 10yds up towards the green—it’s a beast now as the prevailing wind is usually in your face

#2         no alterations—really doesn’t need any with all that tight OB left

#3         a back tee was added three years ago, green has been “rehinged” so that rear and front are less severe, and there is future discussion of moving back tee towards the left (nearer the road) to create a cape sort of effect and to bring the bunker into play as a target

#4         no alterations

#5         leveled back tee, moved target bunker up the fairway 15 yds so that carry from back tee is now 265 and moved left fairway bunkers up and in

#6         no alterations

#7         added back tee (20yds) so that most must now hit driver to get down to the vale….it’s a much tougher hole

#8         don’t know if you remember, but originally there was a bunker low and right of the fairway—returned it, but pushed it way up the right side about 75 yds from the green…a nasty spot for sure as it is quite deep and has made for much more of a risk reward on the sometimes reachable shortie.

#9         replaced back tee by moving it up the slope 10 yds, but also elevated it so that there is no real change in distance, “rehinged” green so that it’s less severe and to allow for four days of pin placements—if you recall, the only pins previously were left front, middle and back and dead center—really no good right side pin

#10       IS NOW LONGER THAN #11!!...added back tee (+45 yds!!!—I continue to ba amazed at the difference this makes here!!)  Now everyone has to hit driver, whereas some of us were getting away with 3 iron, wedge in previous years….I always loved the hole before and some have said that Tillie said it was his most loved hole with the Japanese garden influence, etc….BUT NOW IT IS TOUGH—shorter hitters playing it back are now coming into that green with 5 irons!!!

#11       no changes, but future consideration of a new back tee

#12       front right and back of green “rehinged” due to lack of pin placements and left fairway bunkers pinched in and moved up

#13       no changes but consideration of back tee to make it play 185

#14       left fairway bunker pushed in towards fairway 5 yds and up the fairway towards green 15 yds

#15       left bunker complex (b/w 15 and 16) moved up fairway 15 yds and in about 10—it’s now the target for the long hitter (my target!!) with a cut

#16       back tee added (+15)—doesn’t change much as ball still rolls down the hill—future discussion of restoring the flat (aka Roman’s Flat) at the bottom to a fuller size by removing that little red tree and cutting down the rough

#17       completely new tee complex, back tee now at 185yds and more the right by about 15yds…a bigger shot, but still very fair and a better view

#18       new back tee to the right and low, two new fairway bunkers right…the first of the two is a good target and the second one is a good 265 carry—they are where the trees on the right used to be—a much tougher finishing hole than the old 18, but the decent player should still have no more than 160 from the fairway, home….a ton of players, however are finding themselves in the deep new bunkers and can’t pull off the shot.

 

 

After some trouble with the new greens due to rain, everything has been open since about June 1…members love it and you couldn’t be more correct about Caves!!!!

 

[Mike_Cirba]

dcarroll;

I have to admit that my gut impulse when I hear about fairway bunkers being moved on a classic design is a negative one.

Besides being in a different spot, and obviously more in play for longer hitters, could you compare the style and playbility of the new Foster bunkers with the Tillinghast orginals they replaced?

Thanks for your report!  

[david h. carroll]

Mike--the style is identical and look is identical...you really can't tell the difference visually from the old bunkers...they fit in quite well...as to the new bunkers (keep in mind only three total and one of those was originally in existence at #8), they are very true to the rest of the bunkering on the course

[JDoyle]

DCarroll,

I wish I knew that you were at BCC.  Somehow I missed the connection.

I just played BCC two weeks ago and received some detailed information and descriptions on the changes.  The reviews I heard were VERY positive and IMHO, the work moved the course closer to the Tillie design.  The changes were subtle and not distracting.  I loved how the tee was moved back on #10.

The greens were VERY fast.  My partner was above the hole by 20 feet on #15 with a great 3 iron approach.  But, there was no way to stop the ball from running off the green....WOW!  You have to be on the front on almost every green.

BCC was a terrific experience.  Clearly the club wants in on the big event lottery.  The clubhouse renovation also is first-class.

BTW, what did Mucci say about Caves??

[david h. carroll]

JDoyle--I plead the 5th on that one  I think his older posts on Caves have put him on the record.  Glad you enjoyed Five Farms...the greens are extremely quick right now and my brother thinks they're rolling faster than PVGC at the moment.  We have our Ryder Cup this weekend (under 40 vs. over 40) and I know it may be even quicker

[JDoyle]

DC,

Is BCC on the schedule for an Amateur event in the near future?

[david h. carroll]

We just hosted the Mid Atlantic Golf Association Amateur...pretty high numbers and 160 was the cut...we've been trying to get back in the queue for USGA events, but they feel the West is not good enough for onsite qualifying for USAmateur...I disagree...other problem is that for god knows why, Caves is higher on their list.

[Mike_Cirba]

dcarroll;

Glad to hear that you're not seeing a functional or aesthetic difference, and that the membership feels the course is improved.  

Just to clarify, my definition of "new" includes "moved" bunkers, because there is now a new bunker replacing an old one in a different location.  I understand that the intent is to recapture original shot values but the exact landform on which the bunker is created is different by definition, making it a new bunker.  

I've enjoyed some of Keith Foster's original work, and I'm glad to hear that you're pleased with his efforts at Five Farms.      

[HamiltonBHearst]

Jdoyle-I do not believe it is appropriate to display what Mr. Mucci said in a private e-mail.  A little tact is needed in public forumns and if Pat chose to make a private comment it should stay private. I am sure that part of the post with the caves reference was posted inadvertantly.

[Rellio]

There is no question the greens were much quicker than PVGC during the Middle Atlantic Amateur.  I have never seen so many good players putt defensively.   In the first round, I played with this guy from Greensboro who had only played the first 12 holes in a practice round, and said his greens at home ran at about a 4 on the stimp.  I let him know to make sure and keep it below the hole on 15 because it is the most severe green on the course from front to back.  I couldn't watch as he walked off the green 10 shots later...7 of which were with the putter!

There were some decent names that have done pretty well at the US Mid AM this week who played in that tournament, and I am sure Five Farms was an excellent warmup.  I did not hear one negative comment the whole weekend.

[david h. carroll]

Mike--I'm playing his new course in Cambridge at the Hyatt tomorrow and played it once last year right after it opened.  I really liked it, but it was funny to talk with him about it when he was at BCC over last year.  I mentioned that I enjoyed it and he replied that he could have done much more with it, but that the Hyatt folks ran out of $$.

[CHrisB]

dcarroll,
I wish I had looked you up as well; had no idea. What a nice club you have there at BCC. Thanks for the details of the course changes. It was fun to compare today's course with the old aerial in the clubhouse.

The greens were quite fast; the pin on the 17th, for instance was front left and I hit a shot to 15 feet above the hole and just breathed on it to get it going. Same for the 15th. Certainly don't see anything like that down here in TX!

[david h. carroll]

ChrisB--front left at 17 can be very tough...thank god, it's not there too often.

[Mike_Cirba]

dcarroll;

Yes, I played his River Marsh course at the Hyatt in Cambridge earlier this year and there is some fun stuff out there.  I thought his low-profile style fits the site rather nicely, and I loved the short par four on the back with the crossing bunkers.

Still, I was a bit surprised at a number of lengthy carries required over water and wetlands on a few holes.  He also seems to be enamored with the "rough covered mound", which I've seen here and at a course of his in Texas where he sometimes placed them mid-fairway.  Overall, though, I think his style is certainly classically inspired with some original flair thrown in, which I mostly appreciate.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Chris,

Here's another aerial of Five Farms, which was AOTD #110 (and thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3841 )

[Neil Regan]

dcarroll,
 I played in the Tillinghast Cup at Five Farms a few years ago.  No club has ever been more hospitable.
 And what a course. I found the greens comparable to only a handful of the world's great courses. They are as fun to putt as any I have ever putted. They have the sort of breaks that can be figured out, often long arcs to a drop-off point from where the ball will be carried by only gravity to the hole. Your speed must be exquisite, but there is always a way.
 There were 3 greens that we all agreed were (then) too steep for modern grass heights. They are exactly the ones that you inform us were "rehinged" : the 3rd, 9th, and 12th. Can you please explain a little what you mean by "rehinged" ? Do you mean that the unpinnable sections are now flatter, and/or the fall-off slopes less severe ?
 I know great greens when I see them, and the greens at Five Farms are as good as they come.
 My thanks once again to the club for the memorable welcome you all gave us.

neil regan

[JDoyle]

HamiltonBH,

I guess my lack of one of these   made my inquiry seem serious when it wasn't.  I was just having some fun with dcarroll and Patrick.  Sorry if that wasn't obvious.  But just the same, I find your neighborhood patrol attitude rather inappropriate.


Rellio,

Great story about #15.  At the time I couldn't help thinking that the green would soon destroy an unwarned player in a big spot.  Poor guy.

[david h. carroll]

nregan--your guess as to rehinging is correct on all of them....at # 9, we felt we didn't have four days of pin placements and before the Foster work and our current greenskeeper, our former greenskeeper even tried putting pins above that deep right hump...a wild spot but unrealistic...front of 3 was raised a bit and the back lowered a bit, same story at 9 and 12

[Rellio]

What is Tillie's specialty?  Par 3s 4s or 5s?  I cannot imagine two better Par 5s than #s 6 and 14 on any Par 70 I have played.  The tee shot on 6 over the barn (if you have the balls) takes more commitment than any shot on the course.  If you pull it off, the approch demands a slightly down hill lie to a postage stamp green with bunkering short right, right, left, and long (long is trouble).  There is room to bail left, but that will leave a flop shot, and no one wants the flopper.  Tillinghast gives the option of hitting the tee shot out to the right and playing it as a 3 shotter, but the second shot has to clear a row of cross bunkers w/ a long iron or wood.  I wonder if he designed it thinking that the long hitter could clear the barn?  What do you think?

[NAF]

ChrisB

I visited with G. Childs a few months ago and my greens chair as part of our Tillinghast restoration project at Alpine.  The head pro there, Tony Pancake was extremely generous with his time and allowing us the hospitality to play his course.  We also met Dave Carroll and a more friendly club I have not visited.  I found the rolling property to be spectacular.  My favorite holes by far where the 2 par 5s with the barn hole being my favorite as I would love to launch a drive over
the barn (and OB) to have a shot at the hole in 2.  The 10th was also wonderful despite as you say the tiny green is a challenge but this "Japanese Garden" setting is
something I would enjoy playing regularly despite the fact that I hooked my drive into the creek on the left.

One of the biggest things from my understanding of the Foster restoration was giving the bunkers square bottoms.  From what I was told Foster believed the bunkers
had developed U shapes which was not Tillie's original intent and he restored the floors of all of the bunkers accordingly.  Foster also softened several greens which had very steep shelves (which is an argument we are having at Alpine at the moment and part of the reason we went to see Baltimore).  I never saw the greens before they were changed but flattening them made them seem much fairer and obviously
added cuppage space.  BCC wants to host another major tournament and I think the flattening of several of these slopes plus the added length is evidence of that.  As
a member of a Tillie course that won't be trying to get a major tournament I hope we don't do what happen at BCC re: some of the greens but it is understandable why they did that.  Still at Alpine, they have already changed several greens in the past.  But overall, I'd give Alpine the nod on more interesting greens than BCC, (I must have Dave Carroll there to see what he thinks (-:).

What also amazes me about 5 farms is Tillinghast's versatility. When I played there I had played Winged Foot the week before. Between, my club, WFW and 5 farms I can't tell in the slightest it is the same designer.  Throw in Bethpage and SFGC and you would have no idea Tillie did them all.  That fact I find fascinating or perhaps it is just my eye.

[Jonathan Cummings]

dcarroll,

Did they rebuild the barn on 5 that burned down a few years ago?

JC

[Craig Disher]

dcarroll,
I had seen BCC many years ago but wasn't nearly as impressed as I was after seeing it during the Mid-Atlantic Am. I heard that some of the bunkers had been redone but except for a slight difference in sand color, it was impossible to tell which were original and which were rebuilt. The style was completely consistent throughout the course.

What is the story with the fairway bunker near the 5th green on the right? It seems like it was designed as a penalty for hitting into one of the driving bunkers but it is almost surrounded by trees, front and back. The bunker to the right of it -- was it meant for the 6th hole? I couldn't figure it out.

[Jim Franklin]

JC -

I am another Five Farms member and yes the barn did burn down a few years ago and since been rebuilt. The outside is nearly identical, but the inside is more functional for the grounds crew.

Craig -

You bring up an interesting question regarding the bunker on #5. The second bunker on the right catches my blocked drive and if it is not too far up the bunker, I can cut it around to the green. The other bunker was moved back (from the tee) 25 yards and now takes a 250 uphill drive to clear.