Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA

[Thomas Dai]

As a follow-up to my thread on the best 10 courses to study for their architecture in the UK, which would be the best 10 to study in the USA...and why?
Atb

[Matthew Essig]

I think it would be important to have some variety, so I think it should be 10 courses from 10 different architects while also considering different areas, soils, grass types, etc.


1. Pine Valley - Crump/Colt
2. Cypress Point - MacKenzie
3. Shinnecock - Flynn
4. Yale - Macdonald/Raynor  NGLA - C.B. Macdonald
5. Sand Hills - C&C
6. Pinehurst #2 - Ross  Seminole - Ross
7. Pacific Dunes - Doak
8. San Francisco GC - Tillinghast
9. LACC (North) - Thomas
10. Prairie Dunes - Maxwell  Boston GC - Hanse

[Cal Seifert]

I think it would be important to have some variety, so I think it should be 10 courses from 10 different architects while also considering different areas, soils, grass types, etc.


1. Pine Valley - Crump/Colt
2. Cypress Point - MacKenzie
3. Shinnecock - Flynn
4. NGLA - C.B. Macdonald
5. Sand Hills - C&C
6. Seminole - Ross
7. Pacific Dunes - Doak
8. San Francisco GC - Tillinghast
9. LACC (North) - Thomas
10. Boston GC - Hanse

I like this list but feel like a Pete Dye course should be in there somewhere.

[Ira Fishman]

Based on my own play, I am not sure I can get to 10, but:


1. Cypress Point--Balance and harmony at its best.  And gutsy routing that led to two of the great back-to-back Par 3s ever.
2. Yale--For both the design and the construction.
3. Bedford Springs--Where else can you get Tillinghast and Ross on the same 18 holes?
4. Cascades--I have not played it in a long time, but Flynn in a beautiful mountain setting.
5. Pasatiempo--Variety of holes, wonderful use of bunkers and mounding at green sites, ingenious contours on greens.
6. Bandon Trails--Using various land forms but not feeling disjointed plus some real deception on tee shots.
7. Pine Needles--Green sites that seem as if that was the sole purpose of the land from the moment that the waters receded.
8. Bandon Preserve--Short courses are a great development, and hard to believe can have one more fun.
9. Blackwolf Run (River)--Dye putting us just on the edge of too difficult without crossing it.
10. Red Sky (Norman)--Making a pretty rugged mountain site work.


Ira


Ira

[Jim Hoak]

Matthew--Very good list, but how about Yale instead of National to get a better look at Raynor's influence, along with Macdonald?  (I guess you get a little of both architects with both courses.)

[Phil McDade]

I think it would be important to have some variety, so I think it should be 10 courses from 10 different architects while also considering different areas, soils, grass types, etc.


1. Pine Valley - Crump/Colt
2. Cypress Point - MacKenzie
3. Shinnecock - Flynn
4. NGLA - C.B. Macdonald
5. Sand Hills - C&C
6. Seminole - Ross
7. Pacific Dunes - Doak
8. San Francisco GC - Tillinghast
9. LACC (North) - Thomas
10. Boston GC - Hanse

I can't imagine any serious study of golf course architecture in the United States, limited to 10 courses, not including Oakmont and Merion (East).

[BCrosby]

Not only is no overview complete without Oakmont and Merion, ANGC also has to be included.


The MacK at ANGC represents a different design mindset from the MacK at Cypress. Both are essential to an overview of American gca.


Bob

[Bill Shamleffer]

National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Cypress Point
Winged Foot
Pinehurst
Firestone
Long Cove
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills


10 is WAY too limited for the variety of geographic regions and types, and significant style changes through the last century.
My list has no George Thomas, no Flynn, no Nicklaus, Hanse or Doak; no desert courses.

[Cal Seifert]

National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Cypress Point
Winged Foot
Pinehurst
Firestone
Long Cove
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills


10 is WAY too limited for the variety of geographic regions and types, and significant style changes through the last century.
My list has no George Thomas, no Flynn, no Nicklaus, Hanse or Doak; no desert courses.

Curious as to how Firestone made this list.  Most people here wouldn't even watch it being played on TV

[Bill Shamleffer]

National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Cypress Point
Winged Foot
Pinehurst
Firestone
Long Cove
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills


10 is WAY too limited for the variety of geographic regions and types, and significant style changes through the last century.
My list has no George Thomas, no Flynn, no Nicklaus, Hanse or Doak; no desert courses.

Curious as to how Firestone made this list.  Most people here wouldn't even watch it being played on TV

I thought Firestone was a classic style of RTJ that represented a lot of his country club courses, but at a higher level of difficulty.  I thought if one were to understand the RTJ style, Firestone may be a prime example.  I also considered instead of Firestone, as placing Peachtree GC.  We may not be fans of Firestone, but for a generation it was one of the classic examples of brutal tough championship golf courses.  One other course I might use instead, would be Oakland Hills.  What RTJ did to that course is also an excellent example of his style.

[Jim Nugent]

Not only is no overview complete without Oakmont and Merion, ANGC also has to be included.


The MacK at ANGC represents a different design mindset from the MacK at Cypress. Both are essential to an overview of American gca.


Bob

Bob, did Bobby Jones influence that different design mindset at ANGC? 

[Peter Pallotta]

This is *not* a good list, and not 'the best' one either, but instead simply the courses that I myself would like to study. In no particular order:

Ballyneal
Garden City
Harbour Town
Fishers Island
The Loop
Mid Pines
Kingsley
Myopia
Stone Eagle
Riviera

[Garland Bayley]

I think it would be important to have some variety, so I think it should be 10 courses from 10 different architects while also considering different areas, soils, grass types, etc.


1. Pine Valley - Crump/Colt
2. Cypress Point Crystal Downs - MacKenzie
3. Shinnecock Lancaster - Flynn
4. NGLA - C.B. Macdonald
5. Sand Hills - C&C
6. Seminole Pinehurst #2 - Ross
7. Pacific Dunes High Pointe - Doak
8. San Francisco GC - Tillinghast
9. LACC (North) - Thomas Prairie Dunes - Maxwell
10. Boston GC - Hanse Shadow Creek - Fazio

With my apologies to Tom.

[Matthew Essig]

I think it would be important to have some variety, so I think it should be 10 courses from 10 different architects while also considering different areas, soils, grass types, etc.


1. Pine Valley - Crump/Colt
2. Cypress Point Crystal Downs - MacKenzie
3. Shinnecock Lancaster - Flynn
4. NGLA - C.B. Macdonald
5. Sand Hills - C&C
6. Seminole Pinehurst #2 - Ross
7. Pacific Dunes High Pointe - Doak
8. San Francisco GC - Tillinghast
9. LACC (North) - Thomas Prairie Dunes - Maxwell
10. Boston GC - Hanse Shadow Creek - Fazio

With my apologies to Tom.

How did I forget Prairie Dunes? When I started making the ten, it was going to be in there, and then I forgot...

I can't imagine any serious study of golf course architecture in the United States, limited to 10 courses, not including Oakmont and Merion (East).

Not only is no overview complete without Oakmont and Merion, ANGC also has to be included.


The MacK at ANGC represents a different design mindset from the MacK at Cypress. Both are essential to an overview of American gca.


Bob

For Oakmont, what would I learn there that I can't elsewhere? Have 5 bunkers on each side of the fairway on most holes? The green complexes are unique, but I could say that about my 10 plus others.

For Merion, I wouldn't recommend it until it gets un-USGA-ified.

I would recommend Pasatiempo or Crystal Downs over ANGC. ANGC is not the course it used to be. Way too many hands in the cookie jar.

No Raynor or Dye on my list hurts. I think we can all agree that narrowing it down to 10 is really hard.

Matthew--Very good list, but how about Yale instead of National to get a better look at Raynor's influence, along with Macdonald?  (I guess you get a little of both architects with both courses.)

I am 100% willing to concede to adding Yale to the list. I have no argument against it.


I also switched Seminole to Pinehurst #2 because Garland changed it and I am also 100% willing to concede to adding it, too.

[Adam_Messix]

These lists are difficult because you intuitively want to include the 10 best rather than a wider cross section.  LA North, SFGC, PVGC, Merion, Shinnecock, and Lancaster are all Philadelphia school so even though the quality is unquestioned, I think you would miss out on a wider cross section of styles.  I think that including separate Doak and C & C is needed because stylistically they are different.  Also remove Prairie Dunes and keep Crystal Downs as a Maxwell/MacKenzie.  I would include Peachtree for RTJ as it represents an era, TPC Sawgrass for Dye even though it has changed dramatically from the original it is the course he seemed to try to outdo, and Wade Hampton over Shadow Creek for Fazio.

[Garland Bayley]

I didn't change anything. I just put up 10 of Tom's 31 flavors. I too would have put Dye in there, but Casa de Campo is not in the US.

[Chris Mavros]

This is by no means a definitive list but I'd be good with it as a starting point.

Prairie Dunes - Extraordinary classic minimalism/terrain based

Sand Hills - One of the best examples of modern minimalism

Merion East - Routing and rhythm

Pine Valley - Finest example of heroic, strategic and penal unifying

Garden City - Shows how interesting and engaging a course can be even on rather mild terrain

NGLA - Use of templates as strategic and fun while maximizing the advantages of ideal land

Pasatiempo - Great variety of holes, bunkering and use of contoured greens

Old Mac - Boldness anchored to classic design themes offering an array of options and always playing different by accounting for elements and selective use of width

TPC Sawgrass - For the time it was built and what it highlights of Dye's work 

Sweeten's Cove - Outstanding example of what I'd call post-modern design with classic and memorable design attributes.  Among others, almost impossible to lose a ball, terrific for match play and seems to bring out a broad spectrum of reactions - temptation, enjoyability, challenge.  I suppose what I envision seeing more of in the next few decades.  All on unremarkable land.

[Sean_A]

As a follow-up to my thread on the best 10 courses to study for their architecture in the UK, which would be the best 10 to study in the USA...and why?
Atb

The list would be purely for myself and I don't feel a particular need to "study" a broad section of courses...10 ain't enough to do the job anyway. 

NGLA
Ballyneal
Myopia
Fishers
CPC
Pine Valley
ANGC
Old Mac
LACC North
Eastward Ho!

Previously mentioned The Loop & Yale could possibly replace a non-bolded course. Sweetens Cove, Lawsonia and Wolf Point could also easily feature.

I would include Peachtree for RTJ as it represents an era, TPC Sawgrass for Dye even though it has changed dramatically from the original it is the course he seemed to try to outdo, and Wade Hampton over Shadow Creek for Fazio.

I can't imagine using three picks for Peachtree, Sawgrass and Wade Hampton. I guess it goes to show that it really does take all kinds...and that is a great thing.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you for the various lists and nominations.
Interesting that the courses mentioned above, with a couple of exceptions, are generally very well known or pretty well known names whereas on the thread about courses to study in the U.K. there were quite a few “under and radar” and “not the usual suspect” highlighted.
Atb

[Doug Wright]

ANGC
Pacific Dunes
Sand Hills
Pine Valley
Desert Forest
Muirfield Village
LACC
Harbor Town
Pinehurst #2
Yale

[Garland Bayley]

Thank you for the various lists and nominations.
Interesting that the courses mentioned above, with a couple of exceptions, are generally very well known or pretty well known names whereas on the thread about courses to study in the U.K. there were quite a few “under and radar” and “not the usual suspect” highlighted.
Atb

In the U.K. you can actually play the courses you are suggesting. In the U.S., you only hope to play these courses you know about, so how can you compare them to what you actually can play?

Furthermore, in the U.K. you often find such courses 10 to 15 miles apart in a small country. In the U.S. such a situation exists rarely, such as NGLA, Shinnecock, and Sebonack, but who can play those? Not, me. And, the U.S. is a huge country so getting around to candidate courses is much more difficult.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thank you for the various lists and nominations.
Interesting that the courses mentioned above, with a couple of exceptions, are generally very well known or pretty well known names whereas on the thread about courses to study in the U.K. there were quite a few “under and radar” and “not the usual suspect” highlighted.
Atb

In the U.K. you can actually play the courses you are suggesting. In the U.S., you only hope to play these courses you know about, so how can you compare them to what you actually can play?

Furthermore, in the U.K. you often find such courses 10 to 15 miles apart in a small country. In the U.S. such a situation exists rarely, such as NGLA, Shinnecock, and Sebonack, but who can play those? Not, me. And, the U.S. is a huge country so getting around to candidate courses is much more difficult.

Garland,


You could have played all those courses but you chose to act in ways that prevent it. Really, the only reason a white guy our age is shut out of any opportunity is because he closed and locked the door himself.

[Mike Hendren]

Riviera
Crystal Downs
TPC Sawgrass
Desert Forest
Pinehurst #2
Lawsonia Links
Chicago Golf Club
Merion
Cape Arundel
San Francisco Golf Club

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Since you have blocked messages from me, I have to post online what I tried to send you in confidence.

I have been invited to play special places for simply putting up online with your behavior. I have turned down those opportunities, because I don't travel much for golf. I have traveled to Buda and KP, but that is about it.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Since you have blocked messages from me, I have to post online what I tried to send you in confidence.

I have been invited to play special places for simply putting up online with your behavior. I have turned down those opportunities, because I don't travel much for golf. I have traveled to Buda and KP, but that is about it.

Thank you, you don't play the courses you mention because you choose not to. I have never understood how anyone on this site can bash the private club culture in this country when the number of people who play each and every course is mind numbing.