News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2018, 10:36:34 AM »
There are many $$$ courses that host pro tournaments every year.


There's only one Augusta.


While its history with The Masters is inextricably linked, the course is a big reason why the tournament has been so compelling over the years, and as Terry says, a big part of why it became a major.


The only comparable course to me that also holds a really big time event every year is TPC Sawgrass. Sawgrass isn't as compelling to me as Augusta, but it does produce a tourney that is close, imho. And I think it's also every bit the venue that produces the tourney, rather than the other way around.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Doug Hodgson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2018, 11:11:37 AM »
I haven't played at very many private club courses in the US but I've played at many of the world's top courses outside the US (Canada, Australia, British Isles, Continental Europe), and some non-exclusive top US course like Yale (many many times) and Pebble Beach.  I think the only strictly private US courses I've played that have ever appeared in any Top 100 lists are Oakland Hills and Pine Tree.  But I do think I can say that I've played enough great courses to know what I like.  If I were to make a "wish list" of private courses in the US just based on my perception of how much I would enjoy them on purely golfing grounds, abstracting from historical factors such as professional tournaments, I don't think I would put Augusta at the very top of my list.  In the Top 10, but not Top 5... Off the top of my head I can say that if I had to choose between an invitation to Augusta and an invitation to one of the following clubs, I would have to opt for the latter:  National Golf Links, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Merion, Seminole, possibly Riviera

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2018, 12:49:05 PM »
Disagree.  If you hypothetically could eliminate all of the exclusivity and mystique and make the tournament a regular tour stop, I believe it would still be compelling  event because of the golf course. 


Watch past final round broadcasts posted on youtube and I think you would agree.

More or less compelling than Kapalua? Riviera? Pebble Beach?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 12:51:36 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2018, 12:52:50 PM »
Disagree.  If you hypothetically could eliminate all of the exclusivity and mystique and make the tournament a regular tour stop, I believe it would still be compelling  event because of the golf course. 


Watch past final round broadcasts posted on youtube and I think you would agree.

More or less compelling than Kapalua?


Augusta National is easily the most compelling course I've ever seen in person. Haven't played it, of course, but I've walked around it twice, and no other course I've seen in person comes close. I've also walked around Pinehurst #2, and while it looks great too, ANGC looked like a better course.


I LOVE Dormie Club (to switch to a course I have played, and a C&C at that) and yet I wouldn't put it in the same class as Augusta as a golf course.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2018, 01:36:40 PM »
So ANGC and Augusta CC didn't survive the depression as private clubs, and were turned into a golf resort. Now The Coca-Cola Tournament is held at ANGC. Which is the more compelling? The Coca-Cola or the AT&T?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2018, 01:46:37 PM »
I expect to hear lots of #HotTakes on Augusta around this forum this time of year, but suggesting it's basically just an average $150 resort course with a big maintenance budget is probably the hottest one ever.

"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2018, 01:48:41 PM »
I have to disagree with my friend Frank and say the golf course and tournament site have made the Masters. The natural landforms, elevation changes and greens make it one of the great courses anywhere and it is a perennial top five regardless of the source.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2018, 02:05:55 PM »
Didn't Bobby Jones make both the tournament and the golf course?

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2018, 02:40:25 PM »
I have to disagree with my friend Frank and say the golf course and tournament site have made the Masters. The natural landforms, elevation changes and greens make it one of the great courses anywhere and it is a perennial top five regardless of the source.


Tim, the best part of this thread is being called a friend. It’s been a while since we last met, maybe we can change that this season.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2018, 04:40:57 PM »
I have to disagree with my friend Frank and say the golf course and tournament site have made the Masters. The natural landforms, elevation changes and greens make it one of the great courses anywhere and it is a perennial top five regardless of the source.


Tim, the best part of this thread is being called a friend. It’s been a while since we last met, maybe we can change that this season.


Frank, we've never met, obviously, but I hope you know that the overwhelming majority of posters on here consider all other posters friends, and when we debate ideas like this, even if we disagree, it doesn't mean we don't like or respect the other poster.


Even my good friend Garland, who routinely takes others to task, is not nearly as tough as he would seem. :)


Your question is an interesting one, one that has likely been considered by many on here over the years. I tend to agree with Terry that the course elevated the event, but that doesn't mean either of us find this anything other than a fun topic for discussion.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2018, 04:49:27 PM »
I think like an old time poster used to always say. you can't separate the two from each other.  The 2018 Masters tourney and corresponding ANGC golf course are firmly intertwined that you can't really evaluate one without the effect from the other...


However, I will say this.  I don't think ANGC is the only course the green jackets could have accomplished this with.  It could have been a course like Pebble.  Can you imagine how people would fall over themselves if a course like Pebble was as exclusive as ANGC, with near infinite resources going into it?  People would be beg, borrow, and steal to get practice round tickets even moreso than Augusta.  Ditto for a place like Pine Valley...


« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 04:55:55 PM by Kalen Braley »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 04:50:28 PM »
George,

I've got to take you to task. In what way did the course elevate the event? What is special about the course that elevated the event that is not present in other equal courses who's events haven't been elevated?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 04:58:11 PM »
Frank, we've never met, obviously, but I hope you know that the overwhelming majority of posters on here consider all other posters friends, and when we debate ideas like this, even if we disagree, it doesn't mean we don't like or respect the other poster.

Even my good friend Garland, who routinely takes others to task, is not nearly as tough as he would seem. :)

Thanks George!

I'm happy to change the never having met part...what better place to debate than on a golf course? I'm always down.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2018, 04:58:35 PM »
I think like an old time poster used to always say. you can't separate the two from each other.  The 2018 Masters tourney and corresponding ANGC golf course are firmly intertwined that you can't really evaluate one without the effect from the other...


However, I will say this.  I don't think ANGC is the only course the green jackets could have accomplished this with.  It could have been a course like Pebble.  Can you imagine how people would fall over themselves if a course like Pebble was as exclusive as ANGC, with near infinite resources going into it?  People would be beg, borrow, and steal to get practice round tickets even moreso than Augusta.  Ditto for a place like Pine Valley...


And Pine Valley isn’t on the ocean. ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2018, 05:03:24 PM »
I think like an old time poster used to always say. you can't separate the two from each other.  The 2018 Masters tourney and corresponding ANGC golf course are firmly intertwined that you can't really evaluate one without the effect from the other...


However, I will say this.  I don't think ANGC is the only course the green jackets could have accomplished this with.  It could have been a course like Pebble.  Can you imagine how people would fall over themselves if a course like Pebble was as exclusive as ANGC, with near infinite resources going into it?  People would be beg, borrow, and steal to get practice round tickets even moreso than Augusta.  Ditto for a place like Pine Valley...


And Pine Valley isn’t on the ocean. ;)


Tim,


Completely agreed.  I'm guessing there are at least 10 or so courses nationwide where this formula would have worked.


P.S.  Can you imagine how pure those greens at Pebble would be if they deployed an entire army  to keep em Poa free!?

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2018, 05:06:55 PM »
George,

I've got to take you to task. In what way did the course elevate the event? What is special about the course that elevated the event that is not present in other equal courses who's events haven't been elevated?


There's a significant issue with your premise. There are no other equal courses with professional events. Augusta National is a much better golf course than anywhere else the PGA Tour plays on a yearly basis, which would also explain how the course elevated the event (although I'm not the one making that argument).


Edit: I forget that Pebble Beach has a tournament, since they don't play there every day. I'm not sure ANGC is a much better golf course than Pebble.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:10:32 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2018, 05:19:30 PM »
Edward,

Pebble and Riviera are Doak 9s as is ANGC.
Kapalua is a Doak 8.

Don't have the new CG, but wonder what he has Old White at.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2018, 05:31:00 PM »
Edward,

Pebble and Riviera are Doak 9s as is ANGC.
Kapalua is a Doak 8.

Don't have the new CG, but wonder what he has Old White at.


You're right; I completely forgot Riviera too! I knew there was somewhere other than Pebble.


I do think ANGC is a better golf course than both Pebble Beach and Riviera, but I've only seen Pebble and Riviera on TV as opposed to seeing ANGC in person, and haven't played any of the three. So I'm certainly not speaking from a position of authority.


Kapalua also looks like an excellent course, but it also looks like it would be incredibly difficult and potentially cause me to lose a lot of golf balls (not that Augusta wouldn't also be difficult; just in a less aggravating way). I'd put Augusta solidly above Kapalua in any hierarchy.


Regardless, my original post was wrong. It's easy to forget there are a handful of gems on the tour schedule (I love Sedgefield as well, although it's not on the level of any of the aforementioned courses) because there are so many TPCs etc.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2018, 06:46:25 PM »

Apologies to Frank for the target, but this is beyond a fanciful thread premise, whose volume only speaks to why click bait is a thing... its nearly impossible to speak with any fundamental logic or rational evidence tp answer, just inscrutable opinion.


Did the US Open appearances make Bethpage a better course (forgetting alterations and that debate) an architectural wonder or was it always special (even in a rough-hewn state 20 years and back)?


Is Prestwick Prestwick any less because it "lost" the Open? How about the other UK courses - treasures - that never had or long ago had an Open? Are they empirically less because they don't have an Open?


What about Chicago Golf Club...no one sees that, would it be better than ANGC if it had the Western Open every year or some such? Is it better now, but the Masters amplifies ANGC?


And to speak quickly to Kalen...Pine Valley does fling it doors open once a year - for the Crump Cup - and many thousands do not go...as exclusive, as perenially ranked and as visually wonderful as it is.


But let's be honest, if there was no Augusta National but instead another Mackenzie course in GA, whose design Bobby Jones commissioned and participated in, where Marion Hollins participated, Perry Maxwell, and RTJ had done major work on, the Olmstead Bros landscape-planned and who had an exclusive membership of national industrialists and local Southern wealth, with genteel customs and ante-bellum aesthetics, the cognescenti would still all take notice...and this is mostly all pre-Masters in launch, we would be similarly agog at what was made.


This is a fantastic course, moreso in first design iterations...so many different shots are tested...the routing has a circadian rhythm...the average man is still reported as able to "play his game" there...there are loose versions of templates...dramatic playing contours...thin margin of error...audacious greens...heroic and strategic play in full relief...penal play at a minimum...it ticks all the boxes that we expect from courses which don't have a Masters or pros regularly playing...we might be MORE desperate to see it, experience it, cite it as a feather if there were no Masters.


If anything the strain of technology and the Masters Tournament has compromised (or falsified) the "great anytime, in any vision" ethos of the course...


But lastly there is this

George,

I've got to take you to task. In what way did the course elevate the event? What is special about the course that elevated the event that is not present in other equal courses who's events haven't been elevated?


You must be jet-lagged from Mars... How can you deny that 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16, where the panoply of double-bogey to eagle razors edge - available on that ANGC course and that course alone -- hasn't made the Masters?...not to mention the temptations to ruin, to force birdies like on 3, 6, 8 and 14 or sweat out 4s, shot by shot on 1, 5, 7 (now), 10 and 18...


Like PB provokes such interesting play due to architecture from 11 - 16? put a US Open on it and the stringent set-up is the only thing that becomes compelling about it? It's like once they putt on #10...wake me when they are putting on 16...!


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2018, 07:39:37 PM »


George,

I've got to take you to task. In what way did the course elevate the event? What is special about the course that elevated the event that is not present in other equal courses who's events haven't been elevated?


You must be jet-lagged from Mars... How can you deny that 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16, where the panoply of double-bogey to eagle razors edge - available on that ANGC course and that course alone -- hasn't made the Masters?
...
cheers   vk

Practicing our hyperbole are we Vinnie? ;)
6, 7, 8, 9, 10 at Pebble, and assuredly many other places. Part of why they get Doak 8, 9, and 10 ratings.
People, hype, exclusivity, politicking, ticketing policies, perqs, etc. made the Masters. Not to mention luckily having Arnold as a champion when The Open Championship was re-emerging, and interest in a new grand slam taking hold.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2018, 07:59:34 PM »
I think that even the order of the nines at AGNC has helped to make the Masters what it is. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2018, 08:06:26 PM »
I think that even the order of the nines at AGNC has helped to make the Masters what it is.

So they can have such a lame finish at 17 and 18? ;D
Pebble doesn't have a lame finish.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2018, 10:11:24 PM »
The Masters would be just another tournament on ANY OTHER golf course, bar none.  It is all about Augusta National. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2018, 10:13:25 PM »
The Masters would be just another tournament on ANY OTHER golf course, bar none.  It is all about Augusta National.

Why?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Masters makes Augusta, not the other way around...
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2018, 10:38:51 PM »
Garland,
Do I really need to answer that  ??? [size=78%]  [/size]


If there is one tournament that is about the golf course it is The Masters.  The Players has the three finishing holes at The TPC at Sawgrass but outside of that most people (even on this site) would struggle to identify a handful of the other golf holes.  That is not the case at all at Augusta National. 


If they moved the Masters to any other venue, it would lose its appeal very quickly.  The Masters is without question all about the history/the golf course.