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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Angles and firmness.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
  The caddie player relationship is an important part of the game.

No it's not. It detracts from the game. The decision process and working things out for yourself are important parts of the game. Someone telling you what to do isn't.

Niall


Really... what rubbish!


If so, then the game (even the championship one) has forever been "detracted" because caddies were part of anything before courses had 18 friggin holes...before there was an Open championship. There is hardly a picture of a memorable original playing moment where caddies aren't in the frame... Caddies and their duties, the very nature of advice were codified and woven into the game long, long before you came along with your observations...I guess Ouimet and the encouragements of Eddie Lowry were a detracting thing... Arnold and Tip Anderson and all those sages who led the American wave was a "detraction"...Tom Watson was less than he was because Bruce Edwards gave him yardages and reminded him of various dangers on this side or that...the fun of Trevino and his long-time man Herman carried no interest...all the players who came from caddie ranks...were not meant for participation in golf's grand fabric... rubbish.


Historically, tell me when Jones, Sweetser, Travis, Hilton, Taylor, Braid, Old  Tom, Young Tom, the Dunns, the Parks, Vardon, Ray, carried their own clubs and didn't have the technical assistance of a caddie...and all that comes with the person in that role, whether sage or novice, the club's caddie or their regular man...


Look elsewhere for your detraction(s).


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
VK

It seems to me that you are confusing having a bag carrier with someone who tells you what to do.

Going with the early examples you give, Young Tom, Old Tom, Allan Robertson etc would have mostly carried their own clubs on a day to day basis. It would have only been for big matches and maybe even the Open that they had someone carry their clubs. They mostly managed themselves. Same with the other British guys you mention growing up. It would only be by the time they were champions they would have had someone carry their clubs and by then they would have no need of advice from the bag carrier.

For sure some of the early English writers at turn of the century wrote in (mock) awe of Scottish caddies but that was a bit of a cliché and self-deprecation as most were just kids, and even novice golfers weren't prone to taking advice from the juvenile bag carrier.

David Walsh wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about comments made by Nicklaus either at or ahead of this years Masters. The gist of the piece was Nicklaus saying that he couldn't understand why anyone would want to have their caddies tell them what to do or to have all the psychologists, experts and gurus advising them what to do either. As I think he put it, they don't hit the ball, the player does and one of the fun parts is working it all out for yourself. And that's from probably the best player ever, who won his last major in 1986(?).

I'd suggest that the vast majority of golfers in this country side with Nicklaus.

Niall

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
“Without lengthening or altering”, so no changes to courses or the the ball. Um....how about -


A much lower limit on the number of clubs that can be carried - Alister MacKenzie advocated only 6! - and you don’t need a caddy if you’ve only got a few clubs in a small bag
A limit on maximum clubhead loft - say 50*
Unraked bunkers
Time penalties for slow play


That’ll do for starters.

Atb


Well played, Thomas.  All the ideas are goo, and if you ban caddies (I'm strongly in favor of that) some of "more than flat" bellied players will have to carry pencil bags with room for 6-7 clubs, killing two birds with one stone!


Slainte


Rich



Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not to rain on the party...but with the recent branding initiative out of Ponte Vedra - #LiveUnderPar - do we think the 'pros' are leaning towards making the game harder?


Also...to what benefit would making the game harder for the pros deliver?

Peter Pallotta

Indeed, the tour measures driving distance on holes that maximize driving distance (as per 'these guys are good'); interesting to see how the average driving distance at Augusta was much less/shorter than the norm.  Pete Dye's subtle genius lay in creating golf holes (like the 17th at Sawgrass) that, despite appearances, were not at all meant to challenge the best golfers in the world but instead to celebrate/brand them as such. Sunday pressure or not, a pitch shot is still just a pitch shot (except for the majority of average golfers who tremble at the sight of water, and so project that fear/test onto the pros). I have to admit, I'd prefer that my heroes were made of sterner stuff -- that they'd want genuine challenge (and thus true accomplishment) rather than ego-stroking puff pieces.   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 10:03:09 AM by Peter Pallotta »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
VK

It seems to me that you are confusing having a bag carrier with someone who tells you what to do.

Going with the early examples you give, Young Tom, Old Tom, Allan Robertson etc would have mostly carried their own clubs on a day to day basis. It would have only been for big matches and maybe even the Open that they had someone carry their clubs. They mostly managed themselves. Same with the other British guys you mention growing up. It would only be by the time they were champions they would have had someone carry their clubs and by then they would have no need of advice from the bag carrier.

For sure some of the early English writers at turn of the century wrote in (mock) awe of Scottish caddies but that was a bit of a cliché and self-deprecation as most were just kids, and even novice golfers weren't prone to taking advice from the juvenile bag carrier.

David Walsh wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about comments made by Nicklaus either at or ahead of this years Masters. The gist of the piece was Nicklaus saying that he couldn't understand why anyone would want to have their caddies tell them what to do or to have all the psychologists, experts and gurus advising them what to do either. As I think he put it, they don't hit the ball, the player does and one of the fun parts is working it all out for yourself. And that's from probably the best player ever, who won his last major in 1986(?).

I'd suggest that the vast majority of golfers in this country side with Nicklaus.

Niall


Where's the provenance to back all these would haves and were(s) up?...nothing, just more suppositions upon suppositions framed to advance your displeasures... to wit, please offer one instance where Old Tom or anybody else of that historic mien carried their own clubs (which you also argue is not the point, so why did you bring it up - this was about advice, no?). Read Scotland's Gift, please... CBM gives a first hand account of golf in the 1870s...Read the "Old Apple Tree Gang"...the very first time Reid whacked the ball around a three hole pasture in America, he details who was caddying for whom.


While its a quaint delusion to think that many or even most caddies at the turn of the century were young Eddie Lowrys, they were not... Read Carry Your Bag, Sir by David Stirk...read St . Andrews - the First 600 years. Read the voluminous humorous pieces about wretched caddies (by comparison) to see how valuable a sage one is and has always been... Read, study, then read some more...maybe consider...THEN comment.


You invoke one Nicklaus interview of recent vintage...why not look at his remarks about his first experiences in Britain; or why he kept Big Angelo as his regular caddie in the meat of his 70s playing career? But in short I say, Carl Jackson & Ben Crenshaw...guess that was a detracting thing too?


If there is any agreement with your position, it owes to the hard fact that the overwhelming majority of golf is played without one and as such are a costly exotica and not always satisfying aspect of a round... but poll the people whose scores, whose performance, whose livelihood matters to the result and you will get an opposite number.


I have caddied nearly 3000 rounds in my life for all manner of golf big and small, but I have used a caddie for my own game less than 25 times. I don't need nor particularly desire to have a caddie to beat/enjoy (?) my regular partners or have a distant round...but if I'm playing in a competition or visiting a fine course I want to enjoy my one time there, you can bet your balls I'll slip the caddiemaster extra to give me a good one.


It's quite your privilege to hold that you don't think caddies ought to be advising or navigating the players ... it is a misbegotten and desultory thing to cite that which you clearly haven't examined or can back up with any fact or preponderance of fact to advance that position.


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0

Also...to what benefit would making the game harder for the pros deliver?

Old great courses wouldn't have to butcher themselves, just so they can host pro events.  Scores would run higher, without making the courses longer, or tighter, or blanketing them with 6" rough. 

That's my theory, anyway. 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I may be on my own here, but I don't think the caddy helps these guys measurably when they're playing well...which is, after all, the guys we worry about shooting 59 on our baby, isn't it?


If you gave Patrick Reed a sunday bag with the same clubs he has today and a basic yardage book, he'd come to your home course and break the course record in a walk...

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0


I may be on my own here, but I don't think the caddy helps these guys measurably when they're playing well...which is, after all, the guys we worry about shooting 59 on our baby, isn't it?


If you gave Patrick Reed a sunday bag with the same clubs he has today and a basic yardage book, he'd come to your home course and break the course record in a walk...



Agree that par is about 65,or lower, for any PGAT pro on most courses, but I'm not sure your first paragraph is as true as it was even 10 years ago. I think the caddie/player relationship has become almost a partnership--especially for the younger guys. Maybe it's a manifestation of the millennial culture but I think most of them "need" somebody with them--in various capacities (shrink, friend, who knows what else?). There don't seem to be a lot of show up/keep up/shut up caddies working for the under-30 age group.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
That's a fair point...but isn't it really just Jordan?


Ricky and Justin, not so much...Reed, some, but more for confirmation...Dustin, haha.


My theory is that there's so much information available they think they need to consume as much as possible...without actually benefiting from most of it.


Either way, do you think any of the caddies save their player a full stroke per round on average?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0

Rake the bunkers on Thursday morning, after that the only person that can rake a bunker is a player.
Ban use of stimp meter from two weeks prior to tournament start thru tournament.
Eliminate leaderboards, spectators can use phones for that info.
Increase setback of TIOs by an additional 5-10 yards.
Yardage book okay, green books not okay.
Mow fairways only from green end of fairway towards the tee in landing area.


The movement to tour caddies sped up when the tour increased the number of card from 50/60 to 100+. I joined the caddy pool for the Portland Open in the early 60s and they would assign about 50 bags for the week, more on the LPGA tour.. 

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0

That's a fair point...but isn't it really just Jordan?


Ricky and Justin, not so much...Reed, some, but more for confirmation...Dustin, haha.


My theory is that there's so much information available they think they need to consume as much as possible...without actually benefiting from most of it.


Either way, do you think any of the caddies save their player a full stroke per round on average?




You know as well as I that if a player thinks something is helpful, it is helpful. How do you quantify how helpful?


And I absolutely agree on the information consumption part.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does anyone know why there is a rule that a tour player use a caddie?  If a caddie gets injured and the player can't find a replacement immediately, what happens?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
If there is in fact that rule, it would be for appearance only.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Its very simple really.


1.Shorten the ball for the pros by 15%
2. Raise the height of cut on both the fairways and greens significantly to slow them down.
3. Increase the amount of contouring especially on the greens.


Professional golf tournaments (especially the PGA Tour) are a series of flat lie tee shots followed by flat lie fairway shots to flat putt hole position. YAWN FESTIVAL = BORING