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BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2018, 02:31:33 PM »
Garland, how would you play the 12th at ANGC? I’m genuinely curious.

You've got to pick a better example than that. I aim at the center of the green, and get a better result than any of my buddies who share the same handicap and also aim at the center of the green.

Does that take into account topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 02:35:17 PM by BHoover »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2018, 02:37:52 PM »
Garland, how would you play the 12th at ANGC? I’m genuinely curious.

You've got to pick a better example than that. I aim at the center of the green, and get a better result than any of my buddies who share the same handicap and also aim at the center of the green.

Does that take into account topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek?

Of course, because it also takes into account my buddies topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek.
Your task is to figure out why I beat my buddies. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2018, 02:40:26 PM »
Garland, how would you play the 12th at ANGC? I’m genuinely curious.

You've got to pick a better example than that. I aim at the center of the green, and get a better result than any of my buddies who share the same handicap and also aim at the center of the green.

Does that take into account topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek?

Of course, because it also takes into account my buddies topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek.
Your task is to figure out why I beat my buddies. ;)
My task is to make sure I’m never stuck in the group behind yours.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #103 on: April 05, 2018, 02:44:58 PM »

My task is to make sure I’m never stuck in the group behind yours.

Are you sure you could keep up with me if we were to play together? ;) The slowest part of my game is the 30 to 40 yard round trip walk to replace my divots. ;)

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #104 on: April 05, 2018, 02:51:07 PM »
...
There's also this interesting article wherein the PGA Championship doesn't even make the top 15 of strongest fields, because it's based on how much better the players are than the average player in a standard tour event: https://www.pgatour.com/statsreport/2017/09/27/stats-formulas-numbers-golf-strongest-fields.html
...

Wow! A stat made up for the express purpose of qualifying small field events to be the best. Nice bit of picking!


Now who's the mind reader? "Express purpose". You should never dismiss data/assign motives just because you don't like the conclusion.


As I said, I'm not personally a huge fan of the data because it IS skewed towards smaller fields packed with elite players (but there's no evidence they specifically designed it that way to make small fields look better). By their measure, the Masters is actually penalized because of the former champions in the field (the Opens and the PGA would be penalized as well because of the qualifiers and the club pros).


Here's a different, older calculation that includes the number of players in the field, and places the Masters as the 5th hardest tournament to win. Easier than the other majors and the Players, but harder than any of the regular tour events. I don't think there's enough explanation of how they reached their numbers, though. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/694397-the-players-is-hardest-tournament-to-win


I'm not trying to prove anything with these links. I just like logic and objectivity, and looking at things from multiple angles rather than digging my heels in and ignoring anything that doesn't reinforce my subjective beliefs.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2018, 03:01:27 PM »
...
There's also this interesting article wherein the PGA Championship doesn't even make the top 15 of strongest fields, because it's based on how much better the players are than the average player in a standard tour event: https://www.pgatour.com/statsreport/2017/09/27/stats-formulas-numbers-golf-strongest-fields.html
...

Wow! A stat made up for the express purpose of qualifying small field events to be the best. Nice bit of picking!


Now who's the mind reader? "Express purpose". You should never dismiss data/assign motives just because you don't like the conclusion.

That's not mind reading. That's simply a logical conclusion from how the statistic collection was done.
 “There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” ;D


As I said, I'm not personally a huge fan of the data because it IS skewed towards smaller fields packed with elite players

Imagine that, you drew the same logical conclusion that I did.  :o
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 03:06:50 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2018, 03:11:17 PM »
Did anyone else just hear Strange say that the green had three quadrants?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2018, 03:20:07 PM »
holy Hell!!

Sergio Meltdown!!

I wont say anymore for those not watching....setting a new Masters record!!  :o


P.S. Cliff Yes I heard that too ;D 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 03:26:49 PM by Kalen Braley »

Peter Pallotta

Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2018, 06:50:03 PM »
It's been noted thousands of times, and every year I see it with my own eyes, and yet every year it surprises me (so rare is it anywhere else save Augusta):

If a truly great course is characterized by being truly playable for a variety of golfers and in a variety of ways, then Augusta needs to be at the very top of the world's great courses (and above all but maybe one US Open venue):

28 year old bombers at the  height of their powers and 40 year old short-hitting veterans, and first timers and experienced hands, and 50+ part-timers with fragile backs and old, old past champions -- all of them bunched together, a couple under par, a couple over, a great putt here or there difference, smart and disciplined play covering up a host of 'weaknesses', no one shooting the lights out yet few getting hammered:

You can keep your US Open set-ups at your Merions and Oakmonts and Winged Foots and Baltusrols and Chambers Bays and Erin Hills and even (poor old) Shinnecocks and Pinehursts.

Even lengthened and futzed with as it's been, almost every shot on every hole by every golfer seems intriguing (to play) and interesting for golf fans (to watch).  Augusta provides the best 'tournament golf' in America.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:01:49 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2018, 08:09:57 PM »
Garland, however the Masters became a major, the whole world (minus maybe one person) counts it so, and has for many decades.  The public considers the tournament a major.  Sportswriters and media do.  The players sure as hell do.  It would surprise me if much more than one person insists it is not. 

You can resist the tide, but it reminds me of the story about the Japanese soldier who refused to concede his country lost WWII. 



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2018, 08:16:53 PM »
Jim,

I didn't say it wasn't a major. My argument is that it is not major worthy. Which of course is an opinion, just like Peter's emotional adulation forms his opinion that it is.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2018, 11:24:09 PM »
Kalen:

Let's also not forget that the Masters isn't limited to ONLY the top 50. There are multiple players outside the top 50 in the field every year, and none of them have managed to win it yet.
Was Crenshaw in the top 50 when he won his second Masters? 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2018, 11:57:07 PM »
Kalen:

Let's also not forget that the Masters isn't limited to ONLY the top 50. There are multiple players outside the top 50 in the field every year, and none of them have managed to win it yet.
Was Crenshaw in the top 50 when he won his second Masters?


Wayne,


Yes in 95 he was ranked 34th in the world.


 The lowest ranked Master winner I could find was Larry Mize in 87, ranked 36th.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2018, 12:08:52 AM »
How about rookie Fuzzy?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2018, 12:10:29 AM »
How about rookie Fuzzy?


That was in 79, the WR site Archive only goes to 86, the first year they came out...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 12:13:36 AM by Kalen Braley »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2018, 06:30:13 PM »
Wayne,


Yes in 95 he was ranked 34th in the world.


 The lowest ranked Master winner I could find was Larry Mize in 87, ranked 36th.
Thanks Kalen - I guess the drama surrounding his victory is solely due to the fact that it came just a few days after Harvey Penick's death - I thought that it was also the first time that he had contended in a while.  But now that I look into it he had won a tournament almost exactly a year before the 95 Masters, he was T9 in the 94 PGA and T18 in the 94 Masters.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2018, 07:16:25 PM »
Tomorrow afternoon, the back nine at Augusta will be the greatest golf show of the year, just as it is almost every year.  There is simply nothing like 12 thru 16 in all the world in terms of instant 2, 3, or even 4 shot swings, and then the leader(s) have to play to very tough par 4s to get to the house.  It is unparalleled drama, certainly compared to the war of attrition slog that the U.S. Open has become.

Sometime tomorrow, CBS will show a graphic of changes in the leaderboard on a minute-by-minute basis.  You don't see that anywhere else.  And THAT is major.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2018, 08:12:57 PM »
I am a dissenter against the clear weight of this thread. I always try to watch the last two rounds of the Masters. But I always do watch the last two rounds of the US Open. Why? It is our National Championship. Perhaps an antiquated notion in our global age, but we need guideposts in such an age. And more than glad when a player from outside the US wins.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2018, 08:19:22 PM »
I am a dissenter against the clear weight of this thread. I always try to watch the last two rounds of the Masters. But I always do watch the last two rounds of the US Open. Why? It is our National Championship. Perhaps an antiquated notion in our global age, but we need guideposts in such an age. And more than glad when a player from outside the US wins.


Ira


Ira Exactly,


The US Open is an actual championship, come as you are and battle against the best.  The Masters a limited field, dog and pony show designed to wow and virtually guarantee names on Sunday coming down the back 9. Heavy on the tradition, hushed tones, and over the top pomposity ... 

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2018, 08:51:57 PM »
Garland, how would you play the 12th at ANGC? I’m genuinely curious.

You've got to pick a better example than that. I aim at the center of the green, and get a better result than any of my buddies who share the same handicap and also aim at the center of the green.

Does that take into account topping it off the tee and rolling into the creek?


I am an 18 handicap.  My best was 11.4.  I dump it on the side the pin is on and hope for the best. 


Generally, I do not play courses whose greens run as fast as ANGC.  Because I am not a good enough golfer.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2018, 09:16:03 PM »
When I was a kid, I liked the US Open much better simply because more of it was covered on TV, and covered better.   Plus, I liked the experience of watching the otherwise hyper-competent tour pros really sweat and struggle. 

But as an older man now and knowing a little bit more about golf architecture, I can see the US Open has become more of a contrived situation than it used to be.  Or maybe to be more accurate, the USGA has recently had a harder time "contriving well".

In fairness we have to admit that all professional golf tournaments are taking place on contrived grounds.  And as such, Augusta does a better job of contriving than anyone else out there -- with the considerable advantages of using the same venue every year, having absolute control over said venue, and probably an inexhaustible reservoir of funds to enact said control.  In terms of providing the greatest "contrived" golfing ground in the world, ANGC will whip the USGA every time.

And nowadays, which tournament can I see better from my couch? It's not the US Open anymore.  It's the Masters, hands down.  Somebody up there said the Masters app is the greatest one out there, and I agree.  Also, once the Masters got over the mystery angle years ago and started showing the front nine action to everybody, the US Open could no longer visually compete.

From a raw GCA standpoint, you've got to admit that ANGC, its basic design, and the land it is set on makes for better architecture than all but a rare few American golf courses -- even with the institution of the second cut.  Pine Valley and CPC could easily compete with Augusta -- but they can't physically host majors.  A wonderful course like Merion could compete, but is kind of compromised by the USGA setup and the problems of modern equipment.  Shinnecock this year could be very good.

Meanwhile, the ever more detailed Masters coverage lets us see even more closely how short(er) grass and ground contours used intelligently are REALLY what makes the game a challenge for the pros.  This is not what I thought as a kid, when it seemed five-inch rough was the best likely solution to create a test.

If ANGC would just get rid of that long(ish) grass, they'd have a hammerlock advantage on the US Open going forward.  The USGA knows it too -- look at how they introduce a course like Erin Hills with its short grass and width into a championship rota known for anything but that. 

I think the USGA could make their Open better and keep it a distinctive brand by just making Oakmont its permanent site.  That place is great golf architecture too, and very much in tune with the historical ethos of the US Open.   I don't suppose the Oakmont membership would want to put up with that, though.

I think I understand the crowd that believes The Open Championship still is the reigning king of the game.  For all my blather about golfing contrivance, it makes sense that the world's best major needs to be one decided on a real links situated in the homeland of golf.  I don't have a good argument against that, so it's probably the truth.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2018, 09:43:50 PM »
I am a dissenter against the clear weight of this thread. I always try to watch the last two rounds of the Masters. But I always do watch the last two rounds of the US Open. Why? It is our National Championship.
Our?  Not for all of us in this tree house.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2018, 09:57:29 PM »
I do enjoy watching the US Open on Fathers Day afternoon. I watch the Open on Thursday and Friday mornings at work. I watch the Masters all four days without end.  If baseball was played on a triangle there would only be three majors.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2018, 10:20:28 PM »
Let’s not go xenophobic.


They’re both great championships. The Masters is the first rite of Spring and the course looks like computer graphics, as it appears too perfect. On tv and in person. But we live it because the season has begun.


The US Open has different venues and it tries to defend par to a fault IMO. But there are many indelible memories there too.


The Open Championship is sui generis, the unique and original work of art. The PGA is the last and the least. Might as well stand for “put golf away”, but even after that, every other year, we have the Ryder Cup, which has its own charms, so we are glad pro golf isn’t done for the year.


The Masters is first in line and for those of us who are winter afflicted, it hits us in the sweet spot. Let’s enjoy it while we can.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 10:33:45 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open vs Masters
« Reply #124 on: April 07, 2018, 11:06:46 PM »
I am a dissenter against the clear weight of this thread. I always try to watch the last two rounds of the Masters. But I always do watch the last two rounds of the US Open. Why? It is our National Championship. Perhaps an antiquated notion in our global age, but we need guideposts in such an age. And more than glad when a player from outside the US wins.


Ira


Ira Exactly,


The US Open is an actual championship, come as you are and battle against the best.  The Masters a limited field, dog and pony show designed to wow and virtually guarantee names on Sunday coming down the back 9. Heavy on the tradition, hushed tones, and over the top pomposity ...


Kalen, give it up!!!  Your argument is tired and wears against us who enjoy watching great golf.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

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