[Jeff Schley]

As fewer and fewer courses are being built many times the next to last resort to closing a private club is to convert it to public.  What successful transitions come to mind?  A few I know:

Ravisloe south of Chicago
Quintero outside of Phoenix
Inniscrone Golf Club outside Philadelphia
Atlantic City CC

[Edward Glidewell]

Forest Oaks Country Club in Greensboro, NC (former host of the Wyndham/GGO) used to be a private course and is now public. I don't know how successful it's been, but the course is still open.

[John Kavanaugh]

Which courses in the country didn't allow any unaccompanied play last year? Private smivate.

[SL_Solow]

How do you define "success" in this context.  Do you know if your examples are making money?  The number of rounds and at what price?  the level of investment in machinery, equipment and other infrastructure? How many are being held until housing starts rebound for planned sale to developers?  I don't know although I have educated surmises in certain cases.  But I am not prepared to reach conclusions based on those surmises.

[V. Kmetz]

Which courses in the country didn't allow any unaccompanied play last year? Private smivate.

I know three (3) for sure in a 15 mile radius and have heard second-hand about a handful more...but what does this matter to the point of the thread question?


cheers  vk

[John Kavanaugh]

It matters because I don't believe that courses that allow unaccompanied outside play are private. I played a great private course yesterday. We were treated just like the members. My wealthy bud said he might join just for the member/guest. I hope he does.

[V. Kmetz]

It matters because I don't believe that courses that allow unaccompanied outside play are private. I played a great private course yesterday. We were treated just like the members. My wealthy bud said he might join just for the member/guest. I hope he does.

OK...I surmised that was your belief/point (parsing "strictly" private from private) but WHY does that matter to what was proposed in the thread... which was about a course where the spoils of a privately-held (by private ownership or select member-equity) entity turning to a public model?


When there's a thread (start one if you like) about whether a facility should be called private, by all means chime in... this wasn't that thread and your contribution is a null waste.


cheers vk

[Mike Sweeney]

When there's a thread (start one if you like) about whether a facility should be called private, by all means chime in... this wasn't that thread and your contribution is a null waste.


cheers vk

Goodness knows I like to pick on Jaka, but I think he is 100% on target. I am actually surprised that there has not been a Doak Scale ranking of 1-10 for private/access.


When I first came on this site, there were all sorts of stories about Muirfield's legendary Secretary chasing Tom Doak types away. Now a tee time is a click away, just fire up your credit card - http://www.muirfield.org.uk


Jaka is not always a contrarian...

[John Kavanaugh]

WPP. White Privileged Private. Not really private at all.

[Evan_Green]

We have had 3 good courses in the Bay area go from Private (Military Private to be precise) to public access and all are successful:


Presidio, Bayonet & Blackhorse

[David_Tepper]

"Now a tee time is a click away, just fire up your credit card - http://www.muirfield.org.uk"

Mike S. -

That is the BIG difference between "private" in GB&I and private in the U.S. Non-members booking a tee time at private clubs in the U.S. over the internet (or even over the phone) ain't ever going to happen with the private clubs in the U.S., at least not in our life times.

DT

[Mark Kiely]

A few examples with varying results I know of here in Southern California:


Rancho California CC in Murrieta was purchased by the SCGA and became public as the SCGA Members' Club, and now operates as The Golf Club at Rancho California.


Arrowhead Country Club in Riverside recently opened to the public. It was busy the one time I played it but it's probably too early to say if it will be successful.


Champions Club at the Retreat in Corona and StoneRidge Country Club in Poway both transitioned from public to private and have both since closed.


General Old in Riverside went from military to public in the early '90s and is still kicking. More recently, same for Marine Memorial on Camp Pendleton and the Navy Course in Seal Beach.


Candlewood Country Club in Whittier has allowed public play for a couple years now, but I'm not sure if it's considered completely public or semi-private.

[Jeff Schley]

Rancho California CC in Murrieta was purchased by the SCGA and became public as the SCGA Members' Club, and now operates as The Golf Club at Rancho California.

I lived in Murrieta previously and SCGA was my home course I guess, never knew it was previously a private club.  Do you know when the SCGA bought them out?  BTW they had an excellent range.

[Jeff Schley]

How do you define "success" in this context.  Do you know if your examples are making money?  The number of rounds and at what price?  the level of investment in machinery, equipment and other infrastructure? How many are being held until housing starts rebound for planned sale to developers?  I don't know although I have educated surmises in certain cases.  But I am not prepared to reach conclusions based on those surmises.

No idea.  I know Ravisloe is held in high regard by friends in Chicago area.  The south side certainly is booming unfortunately, thus maybe they are struggling, but they are there.

Quintero is highly sought out as one of the top publics in Phoenix, but again I don't know their finances as it isn't easy to get to and probably why it couldn't survive as a private course.

ACCC had grand plans as a private club to attract high rollers and that failed, although I have never played it the course looks like a very well maintained one that charges 200 plus in prime season.

Looking at the income statement for net income, or the balance sheet for PPE would give insights most certainly.  However, I guess success is a low bar here, meaning they are still open.   

[Mark Kiely]

Rancho California CC in Murrieta was purchased by the SCGA and became public as the SCGA Members' Club, and now operates as The Golf Club at Rancho California.

I lived in Murrieta previously and SCGA was my home course I guess, never knew it was previously a private club.  Do you know when the SCGA bought them out?  BTW they had an excellent range.

In 1994 they purchased the course and renamed it SCGA Members' Club.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Berkleigh CC in Reading, PA became public in 2007 as membership declined and the members decided to cash out. The new owner just hired a management company so I guess they feel they can make money on the deal:


http://www.readingeagle.com/money/article/byler-golf-takes-over-management-of-berkleigh

[Mark Fedeli]

Woodcrest CC in Cherry Hill, NJ

[Sean_A]

When there's a thread (start one if you like) about whether a facility should be called private, by all means chime in... this wasn't that thread and your contribution is a null waste.


cheers vk

Goodness knows I like to pick on Jaka, but I think he is 100% on target. I am actually surprised that there has not been a Doak Scale ranking of 1-10 for private/access.


When I first came on this site, there were all sorts of stories about Muirfield's legendary Secretary chasing Tom Doak types away. Now a tee time is a click away, just fire up your credit card - http://www.muirfield.org.uk


Jaka is not always a contrarian...

Mike

The online booking system is a fantastic concept.  Muirfield hasn't changed their policy...its still Tuesday & Thursday for visitors. Now, the club can avoid interacting with visitors even more while visitors are happy to book online.  Its more more for less personal contact...great stuff.

I think you lot have the entirely wrong concept about private.  If a club is privately owned it can choose who it allows to play, for which reasons and for how much money.  This idea of no unaccompanied visitors is not the measure of privacy...privacy is choosing to do as they wish...and even that position has been eroded...by law.

Ciao   

[Mike Sweeney]

I think you lot have the entirely wrong concept about private.  If a club is privately owned it can choose who it allows to play, for which reasons and for how much money.  This idea of no unaccompanied visitors is not the measure of privacy...privacy is choosing to do as they wish...and even that position has been eroded...by law.

Ciao   

You and I are in complete agreement.

Where I agree with Jaka on unaccompanied visitors is when it is hidden from the membership by management/ownership. Obviously there are different types of memberships that deserve different levels of disclosure. I know he had a bad experience with one, and so did myself and others here. I also know that nobody is crying for Jaka or me , but this is a discussion group so I wanted to add to the discussion.

Interesting very nuanced update - the Naval Academy Golf Course is now taking applications from civilians as they are going to do a renovation over the next few years, and my guess is they want to ramp up fees to pay for it. This is all via the website, so I have no inside information: https://usnagolf.com

Similar to Yale, it has a cool vibe that I appreciate. If I lived down there, I would do it. Both Yale and USNA are and will remain technically private, but they are obviously not in the same private category of some "Sacred Cow Clubs" in the USA that we talk about here.

[Tim Martin]

I don't think it's a secret that the majority(not all) of private clubs are accessible with the call from one's head pro to the club that someone wants to access. If you want to utilize this service as a member of a private then it shouldn't shock or annoy you that this is happening at your own club.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no problem with courses where I am a member charging a foresome a $1,000 plus caddie for a round of golf. It helps the bottom line. I also understand why a guy can pay a fee to a magazine and have the same rights as me. I'm just saying that dismisses the notion of privacy.


If 90% of the people who pay to play Pebble Beach can have their pro call and play Club X how is Pebble public and Club X private? Club X is WPP at best.


The clubs in the mind of the OP have simply tired of the Pro call. It is an oddly outdated custom.

[Mike Sweeney]

If 90% of the people who pay to play Pebble Beach can have their pro call and play Club X how is Pebble public and Club X private? Club X is WPP at best.


The clubs in the mind of the OP have simply tired of the Pro call. It is an oddly outdated custom.

Can you explain what "OP" and "WPP" are? I genuinely do not understand your post.

[John Kavanaugh]

OP is a well known chat term. Original Poster


WPP is my own. White Privileged Private.

[Sean_A]

I think you lot have the entirely wrong concept about private.  If a club is privately owned it can choose who it allows to play, for which reasons and for how much money.  This idea of no unaccompanied visitors is not the measure of privacy...privacy is choosing to do as they wish...and even that position has been eroded...by law.

Ciao   

You and I are in complete agreement.

Where I agree with Jaka on unaccompanied visitors is when it is hidden from the membership by management/ownership.

If club members actually believe that nobody enters their property without paying (or paying less than value) for services they don't live in the real world.  That said, for all I know managers/supers/pros do report to members about unaccompanied visitors...not that I think members would really care if visits are well handled.  All that said, I can fully understand pros and supers having some leeway with invites as a perk or simply as a way to show off the course/club.  What I never fully grasped is why big name clubs allow raters to roll in. 


Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

What I never fully grasped is why big name clubs allow raters to roll in. 

Everybody loves list!


I know you don't, and I wish I could say I am above it, but I am not. However, the list are repetitive at this point so it is a dated conversation for me.

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