Sheep Ranch and the future use of 5-mile Point

[William_G]

As C&C (now as of summer 2018) designs and builds the next new course at the site of the Sheep Ranch, a significant key to it's 18 hole routing will be how 5-Mile Point is utilized.

https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/new-sheep-ranch-course-bandon-dunes-golf-resort-oregon-16099.htm

Right now it's a huge green site with a large mound to the southeast causing a blind shot in from that direction

A large area of undeveloped ground to the east

and a wonderful  110 yard forced carry from the north as a popular par 3

many tee shots have also been hit from the tip of the point primarily heading north to a blind landing zone

so many ways to think of it's best use moving forward

cheers 

[Christian Newton]

Out of concern that it might not exist much longer I made sure to play it late last November. I played into the green in question three ways: from the obvious northerly teeing ground for something like a 130 yard line, from the south as part of a par four-and-a-half, and from dead east, playing as a long three.

I wondered if it might be a candidate for a double green by expanding east and uphill. I think maximum interest (assuming that becomes the architect's goal for the space, would be a par four from the north and a par four from the south. The other idea floated by someone in my group was putting a teeing ground on the western tip rather than green.

I don't like seeing what already exists go under the spade, because I really liked what I gathered was a constraint for the original intent of the course: that nearly every part of the course had visibility to the rest of the course—a true "arena." A new, full 18 would almost certainly lose that.

[Joel_Stewart]

The article and video are 5 months old. Since then there has been some movement and changes.

[William_G]

yes Joel,

I heard C&C might do it now
the video is not new, but still very relevant as nothing like this happens at the click of a button
something may be happening this fall, who knows

 

[William_G]

Christian,

yes with 300 acres, lots of things could happen, as the 13 holes don't take up all the acreage

how the Point is routed will be a key to the routing of the new 18

life is good

[JHoulihan]

I know that many stories told have some truth but also unknown hopes. What is the percentage play of hitting a golf shot on this property in 2018 vs 2019. Inquiring for someone planning on June 2019 trip.


Justin

[William_G]

closed in June whatever year you were hoping   

[JHoulihan]

William,


I heard Sheep Ranch was open November through June. Just wondering if that is no longer true and has either changed or closed to public play.


Justin

[Christian Newton]

Justin,

When I booked it in October I verified the seasonality you mention with the caretaker: those dates are correct. As far as future years are concerned, my understanding is they will continue to book it until such time as ownership starts digging.

Cheers,
Christian

[William_G]

William,


I heard Sheep Ranch was open November through June. Just wondering if that is no longer true and has either changed or closed to public play.


Justin

whatever the caretaker says

never seen anyone out there in June, too dry

always played winter and spring myself

no water for irrigation

good luck

construction could be imminent

life is good

[William_G]

now about that 5-Mile Point routing? LOL

[Ari Techner]

Hopefully management will leave well enough alone and not change one of the most unique experiences in all of golf.


And thanks for the new info, posting of that year and a half old article.


Does anyone have any NEW information?

[William_G]

Hopefully management will leave well enough alone and not change one of the most unique experiences in all of golf.

And thanks for the new info, posting of that year and a half old article.

Does anyone have any NEW information?

Ari,

the info that is new is C&C

you are welcome, as the article is still germane to those unfamiliar with the unique "undisclosed location"

have a great day

[Ari Techner]

Hopefully management will leave well enough alone and not change one of the most unique experiences in all of golf.

And thanks for the new info, posting of that year and a half old article.

Does anyone have any NEW information?

Ari,

the info that is new is C&C

you are welcome, as the article is still germane to those unfamiliar with the unique "undisclosed location"

have a great day

So the new info is that you heard CC "might" be the architect now?


Does anyone have any real information or is it all just conjecture at this point?


If it does happen I'd vote for CC as the architects, it's certainly a beyond amazing piece of land I just think it's so unique and different in its current form it would really be a shame to lose it for another standard type golf course.

[JC Jones]

Vote 1:  Don't touch it


Vote 2: Someone NOT C&C.  At some point something other than the recycling of the same architects would be nice to see from Keiser Co.

[Ari Techner]

Vote 1:  Don't touch it


Vote 2: Someone NOT C&C.  At some point something other than the recycling of the same architects would be nice to see from Keiser Co.

This is a good point too.  CC would definitely make an amazing golf course but it would be nice to see someone else get a shot at it.  Not Gil, IMO he has gotten alot of top projects and has yet to really knock one out of the park.  Lots of up and coming young talent give one of them a shot.  Or even better just leave it as one of the most unique and different golf experience you can have anywhere. 

[William_G]

similar to Sand Valley, Keiser and Friedman could ask for submissions and choose one based on the design merits.....instead of going with his faves Bill and Ben

rumor is that Bill was on site a couple weeks ago

still, the use of 5-Mile Point in the routing is key, as Doak left it as one big green site, "E" green

I don't have a vote regarding the property, but it could be an awesome 18, with more views southeast towards the resort and coastline

I'm fortunate to have played it plenty as is, and it is special

back in 1999/2000 there were rumors about this being a "private", but that did not happen

stay tuned as facts are few and far between

[William_G]

play to 5-Mile Point from the south and it's like an Oceanside Alps hole

play to the Point from the north and it's like 16 at Cabot Cliffs or 7 at Pebble

[Joel_Stewart]

Vote 2: Someone NOT C&C.  At some point something other than the recycling of the same architects would be nice to see from Keiser Co.

Mike has considered other architects but is always happy with the results from C&C.


Who else should get this considering this may be one of the best sites in the world?  (Let's leave out Kidd, Doak and Coore)

[JC Jones]

Let's be honest, Doak and Kidd should not be considered.  Neither of them have produced a solo design in the top 100 since Bandon (everyone knows how Ballyneal has manipulated the Golf Digest voting).


Coore & Crenshaw would be deserving under that criteria.  So would Fazio and Jim Engh and Dana Fry.  Not that top 100 is the goal but Bandon distinguishes itself in several ways from other top tier resorts (Kiawah, Pinehurst, Pebble Beach), one of those ways is that it has multiple top 50 courses, not just one flagship course and a bunch of also rans.  To put something out there that isn't top 100 worthy would be a massive mistake.  (*Doak does seem able to produce top flight courses when proximity to ocean is involved so perhaps there is less of a concern here in that regard)


My point wasn't that C&C would do a bad job, my point was that it would be nice to see something new as they have, notably, produced a lot of good stuff but some of it can be seen at several of their courses.


Hanse has been doing interesting work (despite what Ari said above); Urbina has been doing some interesting restorations and did well as co-designer of Old Mac.  Those are two I think could stay true to the Bandon aesthetic and vibe while also producing something great. 


All that being said, I think what Doak laid out there is perfect and the Sheep Ranch should not be touched.

[Ari Techner]

Let's be honest, Doak and Kidd should not be considered.  Neither of them have produced a solo design in the top 100 since Bandon (everyone knows how Ballyneal has manipulated the Golf Digest voting).


Coore & Crenshaw would be deserving under that criteria.  So would Fazio and Jim Engh and Dana Fry.  Not that top 100 is the goal but Bandon distinguishes itself in several ways from other top tier resorts (Kiawah, Pinehurst, Pebble Beach), one of those ways is that it has multiple top 50 courses, not just one flagship course and a bunch of also rans.  To put something out there that isn't top 100 worthy would be a massive mistake.  (*Doak does seem able to produce top flight courses when proximity to ocean is involved so perhaps there is less of a concern here in that regard)


My point wasn't that C&C would do a bad job, my point was that it would be nice to see something new as they have, notably, produced a lot of good stuff but some of it can be seen at several of their courses.


Hanse has been doing interesting work (despite what Ari said above); Urbina has been doing some interesting restorations and did well as co-designer of Old Mac.  Those are two I think could stay true to the Bandon aesthetic and vibe while also producing something great. 


All that being said, I think what Doak laid out there is perfect and the Sheep Ranch should not be touched.

I played a course in Myrtle Beach in the 90s that Bob Cupp designed that had 100% geometric shaped greens and bunkers etc.  It was definitely "interesting work".  Should we give him a shot at it too?


IMO Gil has been given many chances to produce a top course and has pretty much failed to knock it out of the park.  I see no reason to trust one of the best pieces of land in the world to him. 


And please not another Old Macdonald type course.  I've never been more excited about a course being built or more disappointed walking off an 18th green.

[jeffwarne]

Well that was actually Hilton Head-not Myrtle, Palmetto Hall...


I thought  Old Mac was incredible and a perfect compliment to the other courses on the property.
What was disappointing?


I certainly would like the Sheep Ranch to stay in its current form.


and JC-Tom Doak hasn't produced any top courses since 2001?
seriously?


I would say Doak, Urbina, Hanse, C&C and no doubt others should All be considered.

[Sven Nilsen]

Getting back to the question at hand, here's an aerial of the location Grey was discussing:



This is really the only dramatic spot on the clifftops out at the Sheep Ranch, and pretty much the only place where you have a view down to the beach and along the coastline.  This might change if the cliff top edge is cleaned up, but there are no cut outs in the cliff top like at 16 at Bandon or 11 at Pac to add some texture, and no dunes like 13 at Pac to create a theater.

[As an aside, everyone keeps talking about how this is an amazing piece of land for golf.  Not sure if I agree as other than a few small elevation changes, the property is relatively flat and doesn't contain anywhere near the types of landforms found on the other four courses at the resort.]

If a new course gets built here, 5 Mile Point is going to be the focus point.  Right now you really have three options for playing to the green. 

(1) From the North with an approach cutting over the cliff edge.  Its an awesome shot, but partially blind.  Don't think the land forms would really work for a par 4 coming from this direction.

(2)  From the East, over the big mound as a completely blind shot.

(3)  From the South, not quite as dramatic as the shot from the North.

It would be cool to see two greens occupying this area, perhaps as the penultimate hole on each 9 before turning back inland, but I'm not sure if the space would safely allow it. 

If it is just going to be one green site, then the question becomes direction of play.  With the predominant summer wind out of the North, making it a one shotter playing downwind with the cliff behind the green seems a bit extreme and a waste of an opportunity.  And any approach from the South to the green is going to have a quartering wind into you driving the ball towards the ocean.  Wherever it is played from, the next tee is going to have to be safely located a good bit away from the green (the primary safety concern on windy sites), meaning it would be hard to use the point for both a green and a teeing area.

Or they could just build the long discussed steakhouse here, and screw using the point for golf.

[JC Jones]

Well that was actually Hilton Head-not Myrtle, Palmetto Hall...


I thought  Old Mac was incredible and a perfect compliment to the other courses on the property.
What was disappointing?


I certainly would like the Sheep Ranch to stay in its current form.


and JC-Tom Doak hasn't produced any top courses since 2001?
seriously?


I would say Doak, Urbina, Hanse, C&C and no doubt others should All be considered.

I said top 100. 


Ari, you and I will have to agree to disagree re Hanse. 

[jeffwarne]

JC,
Off the top of my head

Tara Iti #6 in the world Golf Digest?
Rock Creek Cattle-#21 Golfweek Modern
Sebonack-DESPITE Nicklaus Top 100 Top 35 at some point
Cape Kidnappers-Top 100 World-Top 20 a some point