Why is there little love for the 9th at TOC?

[Thomas Dai]

TOC's 9th seems to get little love.
Why?
Is it a bad hole? Is it because the other holes are 'better' or somehow more acceptable?
Would you change it.....and if so how?
Just curious.
atb

[Clyde Johnson]

I'd get rid of the toilet block and burger van that spoils your first extended view of the town skyline!

Some points to think about:
- It is the only the second time you are playing into a reversed wind. (A point people forget when disparaging the 8th.)
- It is the only green on the Old Course that doesn't have a fold or dip in the foreground; the simplicity of approach can be pretty confounding.
- The green lacks topographic context, there is nothing around to help confirm a line - it's probably the hardest green (alongside the 18th) on the Old to read.
- The central fairway bunkers aren't overly influential, unless you are really trying to chase a hard hook towards the green...but, once you've found them once, they linger in the mind, on what should be a pretty simple drive, for a while.
- Tuck a pin to the left edge, away from the tourist locations, and angle becomes important. Not to mention, there is a little more ripple on that side of the green.

A hole I always look forward to, but perhaps that's because I know the 'best-nine' in the World immediately follows...!

[MClutterbuck]

How many of us play it as a 349 yarder, how many as a very drivable 270? it changes quite a bit.


I have only played it from 270, and I thought it was a fun hole, but a birdie will do that. Clear option to lay up towards the left side of the fairway, or risk the bunkers and go for the green. If you have the distance, and can avoid pulling it short left, a perfect drive gets well rewarded with an eagle putt. The hole does provide a lot of space to miss short right, right and long. Maybe that is a fair critique. 


I can see people might not think much of the aproach shot from the lay up position, so if I got to play it from 349 I might be less inclined to like the hole. 

[Andy Stamm]

The van's days are limited, with the toilet block to be expanded to offer "Castle Course style" call ins to a fully operational kitchen facility...


I don't think it's a great hole, but there's also nothing wrong with it. It's just easily the least inspired on the course. I think it really fits in with the tempo of playing the course though. It's a nice lull before the demands of the back nine and a good place to help build a good score. As Clyde mentioned adjusting to the now changed wind is a real issue. And I find that the bunkers (Boase's and End Hole) in the middle are right where you'd like to go which is well away from the real trouble in the form of rough, gorse, and bunkers up the left.


The strategy's not really changing by the tee in play. Everybody bangs driver and tries to avoid the bunkers. The back tee just provides a much longer second. Although if you can't reach Boase's bunker you have a very wide target.

[MClutterbuck]

The van's days are limited, with the toilet block to be expanded to offer "Castle Course style" call ins to a fully operational kitchen facility...


I don't think it's a great hole, but there's also nothing wrong with it. It's just easily the least inspired on the course. I think it really fits in with the tempo of playing the course though. It's a nice lull before the demands of the back nine and a good place to help build a good score. As Clyde mentioned adjusting to the now changed wind is a real issue. And I find that the bunkers (Boase's and End Hole) in the middle are right where you'd like to go which is well away from the real trouble in the form of rough, gorse, and bunkers up the left.


The strategy's not really changing by the tee in play. Everybody bangs driver and tries to avoid the bunkers. The back tee just provides a much longer second. Although if you can't reach Boase's bunker you have a very wide target.

Andy, why would I bang a driver from the back tee with no real chance to get to the green? Would you attempt to get to 80 yards instead of 130 yards from green center and risk getting into the bunkers?

[Mike Hendren]

Suddenly, after nine holes of cheating left, left is death.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

[Jon Heise]

Near eagle on it for me.


Endless love.

[John Kirk]

I wonder how the 9th hole on the Old Course at St. Andrews fits into this conversation.  I played it once, enjoyed it immensely, and found it to be very memorable.  I've had several GCA threads prompt me to bring up the 9th as an example of one thing or another.  It is very plain looking, and would not look out of place at a local municipal course.

Proof of previously pledged love for the hole in question.

[Jon Wiggett]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.


Jon

[Andy Stamm]

Andy, why would I bang a driver from the back tee with no real chance to get to the green? Would you attempt to get to 80 yards instead of 130 yards from green center and risk getting into the bunkers?

That's a sound strategy, it's just one that's rarely employed! I always hit driver. Unless the tee's up and the wind's behind in which case driver can be too much.


There's plenty of room on both sides, so you basically play up the left and take your chances if you push it. I don't mind End Hole bunker as you can usually get that shot on the green going at the flag. Boase's is easier to hit and worse to play from. But at the end of the day I very much do think that the shorter shot in from taking on the bunkers is worth the risk. It's not a gathering bunker, so it's pretty rare to actually go in. To play short would I think yield higher scores over time. Much like the 12th it's a calculated risk.

[Sean_A]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Near eagle on it for me.


Endless love.

Actual eagle for me in my last round. Followed by an actual eagle on 10.


Naturally, I now love the loop.

[Scott Warren]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

💯


I always enjoy reading people’s arguments on why 9 at TOC is a good hole — as a professional bullshitter, it’s always nice to get some fresh inspiration.

[Thomas Dai]

To explore this further, let's go back to the last part of the initial post -


"Would you change it......and if so how?


atb

[Jon Wiggett]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.


Ciao

Sean,


is that the only thing you have to back up your point of view? REALLY!!! It is clear to all that you really do not like the 9th though you provide no reasons for this. Can you construct a pro/con essay for the 9th to reach a conclusion or is it going to be a continuation of rubbishing any opinion that does not agree with you?


Any fool can make a statement but it takes insight to back it up.


Tchuess

[Sean_A]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.

Ciao

Sean,

is that the only thing you have to back up your point of view? REALLY!!! It is clear to all that you really do not like the 9th though you provide no reasons for this. Can you construct a pro/con essay for the 9th to reach a conclusion or is it going to be a continuation of rubbishing any opinion that does not agree with you?

Any fool can make a statement but it takes insight to back it up.

Tchuess

Jon

I don't hate the 9th, but I don't buy for a NY minute that the hole is special or essential to the TOC experience or design...its the Ikea furniture of TOC.  The reasons for my meh attitude toward the 9th are self evident for those who are objective.  Sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade. I am still perplexed as to why this hole hasn't been seriously improved while unnecessary work on other parts of the course is carried out. I guess it takes all sorts 

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.

Ciao

Sean,

is that the only thing you have to back up your point of view? REALLY!!! It is clear to all that you really do not like the 9th though you provide no reasons for this. Can you construct a pro/con essay for the 9th to reach a conclusion or is it going to be a continuation of rubbishing any opinion that does not agree with you?

Any fool can make a statement but it takes insight to back it up.

Tchuess

Jon

I don't hate the 9th, but I don't buy for a NY minute that the hole is special or essential to the TOC experience or design...

I believe it is essential to the design and experience. In a time when those who play and dash look for 18 postcard holes based on a ‘memorability’ factor, I feel that 9 is a wonderful example of a hole that works on a course that ebbs and flows perfectly. Sure, you could make 9 a better hole, but I’m not convinced it would make TOC a better course, or a better experience. Maybe for those who play it once, but is that the type of dumbed-down design we should be striving for? Courses that slam you over the head 18 times without any of the subtly or flow that make great golf courses...great? And all for the travelling rater rather than the discerning local?

[Jim Nugent]

I am still perplexed as to why this hole hasn't been seriously improved while unnecessary work on other parts of the course is carried out. 

Ciao

What would you do to improve it? 

[William_G]

I like #9, bombs away!

[jeffwarne]

Sometimes its fun and testing to have a driver or faieay wood length  hole


Back in the day they were called par 3s but now you rately ever see a par 3 that is full on driver or fairway wood so the default is to create s short par 4 littered with hazards and options and/or a nasty green that quite often is a conplete monster for anyone not supremely skilled with a wedge.


It's ok to have a par 3.5

[Tim Gavrich]

I have to think that very few golf courses have as great a gulf between their easiest par 4 (9) and their hardest (17). The quiet general flatness of #9 at TOC could easily be criticized in a vacuum, but in the context of the entire course, I think it's an interesting change of pace.


People tend to listen to one song at a time from different artists and genres these days. Golf courses are albums, though. 9 at TOC is not a hit single but it's part of one of the best albums we have available to us.

[Kyle Harris]

I've often wondered why more architects don't have the gravitas to build dead-flat and simple holes. Based on this thread, they seem to mess with people more so than the bold, obvious, designs.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim Gallant and Tim Gavrich,


To each of you: Bravo!

[John Chilver-Stainer]

"Would you change it.....and if so how?"

Although the present hole allows a relative straight pitch, chip or putt from wherever you land. I think it could be improved by requiring a better placement from off the tee.
To this purpose I would create a relatively large spine down the middle of the green from front to back.
Then depending on the pin position the angle into the green can be vital.
If you get it right it's still a straight shot as before, if not - Let the fun begin!