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Ian Andrew

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The problem with evaluating golf course architecture is it's half science and half art. I find there is a lot of threads that talk about specific details and are trying to determine hard and fast rules. I assume they would like to make the evaluation of golf course architecture more scientific.

In my opinion, you can't define how to create exceptional golf architecture.


Assuming that is the end goal.

The problem lies in half of golf course architecture is “art.” So for perspective, I thought I would share some ideas on how to evaluate “art” to point out the complexities of trying to evaluate golf course architecture (when the artistic side is so important).

Is it beautiful? The main problem with this is we all have our own opinions on what is beautiful for us. See Justice Potter Stewart for best explanation on this. I may like Prairie Dunes, whereas another golfer may like the TPC at Sawgrass. Others prefer Winged Foot. We all have a setting that stirs us more than other landscapes, although most golfers like more than a single setting. But this is still completely personal to us. Yes, you can talk everything from composition to symmetry to framing to flow to movement, but beauty is still “in the eye of the beholder”. And we all like different things from each other.

As a quick aside, I will say, that is why site selection seems to be far more important than architecture to many.

It’s unusual to find anyone who doesn’t respond to being at the ocean.  It’s a small segment of the golfing world who could be more impressed with an exceptional design in an average setting over an average design in a great setting. For example, anyone who thinks the renovation to Pinehurst turned it from average to spectacular is judging solely on the presentation. The basic concepts of play barely change other than smaller details. It was a great golfing experience already before the changes.

So what’s next … art is evaluated on skill and technique. I think most golfers do clearly get the aesthetic side of this one and do enjoy brilliant detailed work. I do think this is why the current leading architects are popular, their detail work is often brilliant and most players can see the difference. The more overt details and techniques are front and centre in their compositions and “we do like what we see”. Still, as I said before what you appreciate does fall into that personal taste, although many are capable of “appreciating both early Pete Dye and late Pete Dye at the same time.

While we struggle to define how we get rhythm and flow, I do believe about half of golfers can feel this when they play and respond to it as part of the experience. The majority of golf architecture junkies can breakdown the mixture of experiences along with the variety of challenges. So these aspects or technique are understandable. 

In a recent podcast I spent a great deal of time talking about the importance of tie-ins. Tie-ins are one of the most obvious ways some architects measure the skill and technique of other architects. It’s the last 25% of what makes a great course possible. I find this is the most over-looked “important” aspect of design, whether by golfers, builders or by architects building courses. 

The most important part of technique is the selection of holes and the formation of a journey. It is the single most important part of creating the composition. I will say with blunt honesty that everyone thinks they are capable and that only a handful of architects truly are. There’s a difference between something that works and something that is sublime. I once tried to explain the complexity by saying – it’s not what you can find, but it’s what you can let go of that defines your ability to find the best possible journey. If you want a quicker example, take Doonbeg, proof that the “entire journey matters more than the individual holes. 

Are you with me so far?

So this is where things get a little more out on the edge … I believe all great work comes from either having a philosophy or at least an intention. Designing holes is not enough to ever achieve anything great (my opinion).

There must be a goal, for example ample utilizing width for playability and the ability to move freely through the design through choice. Or another option can be the philosophy of “you must earn every advantage” (essentially this was Bob Cupp’s argument against Pacific Dunes when we played it together). Max Behr’s concept of “playing freedoms” is my greatest personal influence on how I want you to feel when playing my own work. There needs to be some underlying belief in how you want players to feel, or as either Bill Coore or Ben Crenshaw once said its how you want to treat them.

I think I’ve talked about my delving into rollercoaster design to understand heart rates and emotional response to understand how to influence rhythm in the round. Again, like beauty, we don’t all experience rhythms the same way.  What I’m getting at is art at its best is not just “pretty”. It has some deeper underlying message. Whether architects want you to: “earn it” or “enjoy it” or something in between, personal connections to the work matter.


But it doesn’t end there … 

The artistic side of the game can represent a “tip of the hat” to past ideas or a past style, which is pretty common. Or it can be provocative, when someone like Pete Dye takes a “do the opposite of what’s popular” approach and offers up ideas that contrast the current movement. That’s a statement and engaging for many. Think Mike Strantz at Tobacco Road and the love/hate reaction that it creates with so many.

And that brings us to the word unique. 

We can all admire something that borrows well from past examples. We can appreciate when a course is consistently clever and well-conceived from beginning to conclusion, but for some, nothing moves the needle more than the experience of playing something that has no comparison point. That moment of pure surprise where an architect has made a most unusual choice and provided a surprising new riddle (or at least great twist on a known riddle) leave us gobsmacked. “Wow, that was different ...” It’s why as much as I like Bill, Tom and Gil, I’m need the emergence of a divergence.

So I’ve left you with lots to think about (and only cost you two minutes of your day). What I’m trying to say is golf architecture is not created through a checklist or a series of basic principles. It is far more nuanced and is far more dependent on an emotional reaction to what you see and what you experience.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 02:23:20 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

John Kirk

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A beautiful summary.

You say that golf architecture is half science and half art.  Which half is which?  The two are closely related, if not the same thing:

"Artists and scientists tend to approach problems with a similar open-mindedness and inquisitiveness — they both do not fear the unknown, preferring leaps to incremental steps. They make natural partners."

--  John Maeda, Rhode Island School of Design

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/artists-and-scientists-more-alike-than-different/

In addition to the sense of awe and wonder one experiences at the ocean, there is evidence that people physically benefit by walking in a forest.  Lower heart rate and blood pressure, reduced psychological stress, etc.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12199-009-0086-9#Sec9

Many of us believe that any pristine natural environment is superior to the alternative.

Few if any of our experienced architecture enthusiasts believe there are hard and fast rules.  There have been numerous (playful) attempts to establish a method for formulaic analysis, a noteworthy example being Bob Crosby's great essay about Joshua Crane.  Rather than prove the value of formulaic analysis, these threads disprove it.

The routing of the first few holes is important to establish pace of play and satisfactory spacing between playing groups.  There are a few simple concepts like these that constrain or govern design.

That's all I've got.  I took 5-6 minutes to enjoy your post; there's no hurry on a Sunday morning.




« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 06:02:52 PM by John Kirk »

Thomas Dai

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Perhaps not being easy to define is no bad thing, leading to variety and quirk and unusualness rather than towards defined standardisation, which can be pretty boring?
Atb
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 02:44:31 PM by Thomas Dai »

Kalen Braley

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Ian,


Very interesting post, it has my gears grinding, but I do think there are some common principles to a winning formula...


I need to read your post again to take it all in!  ;)




Jeff_Brauer

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Ian,


Nice post.  However, with a premise of not being able to define how to come up with great design, you then go about trying to sort of define it, even if "as different for everyone."  The inherent problem in defining greatness is the task itself, and the written words necessary.


Saw this clip of Disney design guru Bob Gurr.  Highlight is someone asking about design process, and he shuts the idea down as process being counterproductive to creativity.  Sort of what John Kirk's quote gets at.  Think a bit, shut it down, think some more, work out some ideas, let others come to you, etc.  Great design probably does stem from a random bunch of processes, which come to the designer at precisely the right times. 


(For an analogy, take a sports team.  If they miss on too many draft picks, they have a lousy team, etc.  But, add in trades and free agents and some teams become great in other ways)


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?


As another example of how hard the design method to get to the best design is in Thomas Dai's post, where he presumes the goal is to create quirk.  If designing with something truly specific in mind, it is not likely to achieve a great design.  In fact, quirk consciously created is probably not quirk at all, its just another design feature. 


And, in fact, designing to a process loosely regarded as "form follows function" probably does lead to standardization.  Wouldn't the form of all mid priced public golf courses have approximately the same function, and thus approximately the same design?And, if your view of good design was only function, or the bottom line, perhaps a great one.


Kalen is actually still seeking a formula on  thread whose premise is there is no formula!  Such is the human mind, which has a need to organize everything for personal understanding. 


And, even I am doing that right now! 
Both of us have used a lot of words to not describe the indescribable......
Stop the madness! :o


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

V. Kmetz

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I agree with JB and KBs first take...a thoughtful, interesting post, which itself contains "principles" with which I generally agree...


But it leaves me (us) with more of a voicing/articulation problem, than a push to discovery...I mean defining the emotional connectivity that exists in valuable (fill in your word here) is a task that by its nature defies consensus...


I liken the GCArchitect's job very much like the film director's in that they corral a range of technical, engineering and artistic elements... and film's public rating very much like golf courses' rating...Citizen Kane, The Godfather and Star Wars are very different films, but perennially ranked high, the way ANGC, PV, and Cypress are very different golf courses, and forever ranked high.


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mike Sweeney

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Ian, while much of your thesis makes sense, in my world travels I have yet to play an unwalkable course that's worth bothering to play more than once, there's just no magic in cartball, the spirit of golf doesn't reside in those dumbed down bastardizations of the game.  So yeah, a walkable routing should be part of every architect's checklist.


melvyn is not a dumb azz#


And if you can build that non-cart ball course on sand with few environmental restrictions and a decent budget, you are off to a pretty good start.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Bill Raffo

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I often think about the benefits of the template designers of the Golden Era.  They had tried and true strategic hole designs in their back pocket and then would look at the property and figure out the best locations to integrate those designs, tweaking and individualizing them depending on what made the most sense.



Those courses rarely disappoint and the philosophy seems a more sure way to ensure you'll come up with something that challenges and pleases the majority of golfers. I suppose there is a lot of pressure on GCA's to do something unique on almost every hole, on every course. But it's harder and more hit and miss.




Sean_A

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I spose my intial thought is that I am not terribly focused on exceptional architecture....so I am not overly concerned with how exceptional golf is created.  Yes, its wonderful to play great courses and even great holes, but that is not what leads me to the 1st tee.  Good golf with a sensible routing that offers roughly equal measures of pleasure, excitement and challenge is all I need to keep me coming back....anything more is icing on the cake and to some degree wasted on me if it means golf has to be expensive...which sadly is all too often the case.  I often say greatness is over-rated and I mean it.  However, that sentiment should in no way communicate to archies that they shouldn't strive for exceptional design....otherwise there would be far fewer exceptional courses because they generally don't get built by accident.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:07:49 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mike_Young

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Ian mentions the land often being the key and the Jeff B comes along and relates how greatness is acquired by a sports team. 
While good land is definitely a big part of exceptional architecture, I m more convinced now that the owner is even more important.  It is obviously the key to Jeff's sports analogy and I think it goes back to The land also....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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I often think about the benefits of the template designers of the Golden Era.  They had tried and true strategic hole designs in their back pocket and then would look at the property and figure out the best locations to integrate those designs, tweaking and individualizing them depending on what made the most sense.

Those courses rarely disappoint and the philosophy seems a more sure way to ensure you'll come up with something that challenges and pleases the majority of golfers. I suppose there is a lot of pressure on GCA's to do something unique on almost every hole, on every course. But it's harder and more hit and miss.


Do you understand the difference between "rarely disappoint" and exceptional ??

Tom_Doak

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Ian:


When I worked for Mr. Dye, I was stationed briefly in Clarksburg, WV, where Pete's client James LaRosa had become obsessed with building "the greatest golf course in the world".  Pete told him that I was in charge of that list, so Mr. LaRosa spent those two weeks asking me a million questions about what it would take to reach that goal.  [I think Pete set me up on purpose  :D  ]


For an exercise I did a thorough analysis of the top ten courses in the world, and what they had in common, to see how many real "rules" of golf architecture I could find.


Nearly all of the rules suggested by others were clearly violated by at least one course:


Par-3's to four compass directions?  MUIRFIELD has three playing to the east.
Par?  Everything from 70 [PINE VALLEY AND MERION] to 72.  BALLYBUNION has five par-3's.
Balance?  BALLYBUNION has a lot of doglegs, almost all of them to the left.  Another course I can't think of now goes predominantly right.
Length?  NONE of the top ten courses were 7000 yards long back in 1985 when I did this exercise.  Cypress Point and Merion were under 6500.
Beauty?  OAKMONT is not really beautiful, and ST. ANDREWS is an acquired taste in that regard [ask Sam Snead!].
Green size?  PEBBLE BEACH has some of the smallest greens in golf.  ST. ANDREWS some of the biggest.
Green contour?  They range from fairly flat [MUIRFIELD] to extreme [AUGUSTA, OAKMONT, PINE VALLEY], leaning to the extreme.


About the only thing they did have in common was that all of them were walkable.  Since then I have paid close attention to the rankings to see whether this rule will fall by the wayside ... there are a few now in the top 100 that aren't really walkable, but it doesn't seem that any of them will push into the top 25.


The other thing they had in common was Character.  Sometimes it comes from Intention, as at OAKMONT or PINE VALLEY; sometimes it comes from the site.  But each of the great courses has a distinct character that isn't borrowed from somewhere else, and isn't easily replicated.


Tim Martin

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Ian:


When I worked for Mr. Dye, I was stationed briefly in Clarksburg, WV, where Pete's client James LaRosa had become obsessed with building "the greatest golf course in the world".  Pete told him that I was in charge of that list, so Mr. LaRosa spent those two weeks asking me a million questions about what it would take to reach that goal.  [I think Pete set me up on purpose  :D  ]


For an exercise I did a thorough analysis of the top ten courses in the world, and what they had in common, to see how many real "rules" of golf architecture I could find.


Nearly all of the rules suggested by others were clearly violated by at least one course:


Par-3's to four compass directions?  MUIRFIELD has three playing to the east.
Par?  Everything from 70 [PINE VALLEY AND MERION] to 72.  BALLYBUNION has five par-3's.
Balance?  BALLYBUNION has a lot of doglegs, almost all of them to the left.  Another course I can't think of now goes predominantly right.
Length?  NONE of the top ten courses were 7000 yards long back in 1985 when I did this exercise.  Cypress Point and Merion were under 6500.
Beauty?  OAKMONT is not really beautiful, and ST. ANDREWS is an acquired taste in that regard [ask Sam Snead!].
Green size?  PEBBLE BEACH has some of the smallest greens in golf.  ST. ANDREWS some of the biggest.
Green contour?  They range from fairly flat [MUIRFIELD] to extreme [AUGUSTA, OAKMONT, PINE VALLEY], leaning to the extreme.


About the only thing they did have in common was that all of them were walkable.  Since then I have paid close attention to the rankings to see whether this rule will fall by the wayside ... there are a few now in the top 100 that aren't really walkable, but it doesn't seem that any of them will push into the top 25.


The other thing they had in common was Character.  Sometimes it comes from Intention, as at OAKMONT or PINE VALLEY; sometimes it comes from the site.  But each of the great courses has a distinct character that isn't borrowed from somewhere else, and isn't easily replicated.


Tom-To play devil’s advocate NGLA certainly follows the template model and is almost universally accepted as great.

Jeff_Brauer

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......... I m more convinced now that the owner is even more important.  It is obviously the key to Jeff's sports analogy and I think it goes back to The land also....



Mike,


Its no coincidence that on all of my best projects, I have had a very synergistic relationship with the Owner or (in the case of the big, faceless state of Minnesota and other public clients) the Owner's primary rep.


Agree with the land.  At one point, Fazio thought maybe he could just import an ocean, river or forest to improve the design, but never managed to do so convincingly.


Agree with Tom's point about character, which like Ian notes, is hard to define, and much of it relates to the art.  In both cases, we may be best to just say "we know it when we see it."  Back in landscape architecture classes, the professors used to call what TD described as "
distinct character that isn't borrowed from somewhere else, and isn't easily replicated" as creating a "sense of place." 


And, back in the day, southern courses were different than northern courses, Ross courses were distinct from Mac courses, etc.  Then, RTJ started building his brand everywhere, and Fazio perfected building similar courses nearly everywhere (although he produced more variety than given credit for here) and builders started working for many different architects, while it was easier (airline travel) to see what others were doing, etc.  A lot of factors may have combined to reduce "sense of place" as a prime design component.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 11:14:09 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Nugent

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Tom-To play devil’s advocate NGLA certainly follows the template model and is almost universally accepted as great.

Tim, along with NGLA add Fishers Island, Camargo, Lido, St. Louis CC, Chicago Golf, Mid-Ocean, Old White, Yale, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, parts of Merion and ANGC...

... and Tom's own Old Mac. 

i.e. the list of exceptional golf courses based on templates is long and outstanding. 

Ian Andrew

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Tom-To play devil’s advocate NGLA certainly follows the template model and is almost universally accepted as great.

Tim, along with NGLA add Fishers Island, Camargo, Lido, St. Louis CC, Chicago Golf, Mid-Ocean, Old White, Yale, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, parts of Merion and ANGC...

... and Tom's own Old Mac. 

i.e. the list of exceptional golf courses based on templates is long and outstanding.




A few comments on this answer:


1. Seth Raynor was far better at routing a course than he gets credit for. You also need to look at courses like Shoreacres where the templates are not the key to what makes that course standout.


2. A template is not a cut and paste exercise. It's requires finding a suitable location, then adapting it and in Raynor's case often providing a different spin on the concept by combining templates or creating a new twist. I find his skill gets diminished because of a template approach, but you never look hard enough to see if modern architects use their own templates.





With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

AStaples

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Speaking from experience, you really understand how good guys like Raynor were at routing when you try to impose a template on a site, and it just doesn't quite get there.  I find that almost every time, it comes down to making the drainage work.  This is what I see as the most impressive parts to Raynor and Langford.  Look at the approaches, then look from behind the greens, and you can tell just how intimate their understanding of their site was.

Tom_Doak

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Tom-To play devil’s advocate NGLA certainly follows the template model and is almost universally accepted as great.

Tim, along with NGLA add Fishers Island, Camargo, Lido, St. Louis CC, Chicago Golf, Mid-Ocean, Old White, Yale, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, parts of Merion and ANGC...

... and Tom's own Old Mac. 

i.e. the list of exceptional golf courses based on templates is long and outstanding.


My own comments:


1)  NGLA was not a "template course".  It INVENTED the idea of templates, so Macdonald could design them however he wanted to fit the land.  It's also an exceptional piece of ground, as are several of the others listed, to Ian's first point.


2)  At Old Macdonald we held out to REINVENT the templates instead of doing the cookie-cutter version of them.  If we'd gone with the cookies I don't think the course would be nearly as successful.


3)  There is a difference between "great" and "exceptional".  All of the courses listed may be considered great, but not many of them are really exceptional.

Edward Glidewell

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All we have to do is look at the rankings lists to see how subjective exceptional/great (if we are defining those as the same thing, and I see some are not) can be when it comes to golf architecture.


I think of Settindown Creek here in Atlanta -- it's routinely listed in the top 10 of best of state lists, but a friend of mine (I haven't seen it personally) played in a charity scramble there a few months ago with some older high handicappers as partners. He said the course was unplayable for them. There were multiple times throughout the round where forced carries required them to simply pick up and go to wherever he was, because their best effort would have resulted in a lost ball due to an inability to make the carry. I don't think most people here would consider that great architecture (and neither would I), but there are golfers who desire that type of experience in a golf course.

I guess the fundamental question is exceptional/great to who? To professionals? To low handicappers? To high handicappers? I suppose the ideal exceptional golf course would be exceptional to the majority of all groups, but I'm not sure that's even possible.

George Pazin

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Do you understand the difference between "rarely disappoint" and exceptional ??


I don't think I do, and I would love to read your thoughts on this difference.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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About the only thing they did have in common was that all of them were walkable.  Since then I have paid close attention to the rankings to see whether this rule will fall by the wayside ... there are a few now in the top 100 that aren't really walkable, but it doesn't seem that any of them will push into the top 25.


Apologies for deleting the rest of your thoughts, I just found this ironic. I doubt many would consider the course in Clarksburg to be comfortably walkable. Most of our gca group didn't seem to think so, based on the choice of carts. It sure did break some rules, though.


And Oakmont isn't beautiful? Surely you jest! :) Seriously, though, I kinda feel sorry for someone who tees it up at Oakmont and doesn't see the beauty. It is flat out gorgeous.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

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Do you understand the difference between "rarely disappoint" and exceptional ??


I don't think I do, and I would love to read your thoughts on this difference.


George:


If the architect's [or client's] aim is to not disappoint the golfer, he won't want to take chances with original or unusual ideas.  That would be aiming for a 6 on the Doak Scale ... a course that is going to do reasonable business, but that you could already find in most golf markets worldwide, so it isn't going to draw much interest from far away.


If the architect's aim is to build something "exceptional", he should be trying to do something different than he's done before, and that may entail taking chances with original or unusual ideas.


The thing that's hard for some to grasp is that there is a continual learning curve here.  What was exceptional when C.B. Macdonald built The National in the early 1900's, was no longer exceptional by the time Seth Raynor died in 1926.  For that matter, what was exceptional when we built Pacific Dunes is no longer as exceptional today.

Tom_Doak

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About the only thing they did have in common was that all of them were walkable.  Since then I have paid close attention to the rankings to see whether this rule will fall by the wayside ... there are a few now in the top 100 that aren't really walkable, but it doesn't seem that any of them will push into the top 25.

Apologies for deleting the rest of your thoughts, I just found this ironic. I doubt many would consider the course in Clarksburg to be comfortably walkable. Most of our gca group didn't seem to think so, based on the choice of carts. It sure did break some rules, though.



Yes, I noticed that, and tried to make the point to him, and get him to move the tees closer to the greens on the back nine [which was yet to be finished].


Ultimately, though, the study helped my understanding of design and my comfort level in breaking other people's "rules" much more than it helped the Pete Dye Golf Club.  That was pretty much the end of me analyzing designs on paper, and going with what felt like it was working ... and all before I'd ever designed a course on my own! 

Kalen Braley

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"That was pretty much the end of me analyzing designs on paper, and going with what felt like it was working ..."

Tom half tongue in cheek and half serious....is this to suggest that the ArmChair Architecture routing exercises/contests we have here are pretty much an exercise in futility? ;)

Because if so, that would at least be one explaination why I'm not very good at them.  I actually worked on two topo activities and never bothered submitting because they didn't seem very good....and the results/winners seemed to confirm this.

P.S.  If being a GCA member all these years has taught me anything, if I ever hit the Lotto and buy some land, I sure as hell won't be trying to design the course.

Jim Nugent

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Tom-To play devil’s advocate NGLA certainly follows the template model and is almost universally accepted as great.

Tim, along with NGLA add Fishers Island, Camargo, Lido, St. Louis CC, Chicago Golf, Mid-Ocean, Old White, Yale, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, parts of Merion and ANGC...

... and Tom's own Old Mac. 

i.e. the list of exceptional golf courses based on templates is long and outstanding.


My own comments:

1)  NGLA was not a "template course".  It INVENTED the idea of templates, so Macdonald could design them however he wanted to fit the land.  It's also an exceptional piece of ground, as are several of the others listed, to Ian's first point.

2)  At Old Macdonald we held out to REINVENT the templates instead of doing the cookie-cutter version of them.  If we'd gone with the cookies I don't think the course would be nearly as successful.

3)  There is a difference between "great" and "exceptional".  All of the courses listed may be considered great, but not many of them are really exceptional.

Taking your points one at a time...

1) I disagree.  NGLA is almost entirely templates.  Yes it was the the first template course, but a template course nonetheless: the Grandmother of Templates, designed by the Grandfather of US golf architecture.

2)  Agree totally about Old Mac, but don't see how that changes the fact that the designer based it on templates.  If anything, Old Mac shows the flexibility in the template concept.   

3) This seems like semantics to me, but accepting some undefined distinction, do you not consider Yale and Fishers exceptional?  Many who wrote about Lido thought it was exceptional: one of the revered golf critics of the time called it the best course in the world.  Merion is a ten on the Doak scale, and just about every other scale as well.  Most rate ANGC a ten, and IIRC you gave it a 9, which surely is exceptional.  Most consider Old Mac exceptional. 

Overall, anything in the world top 100 seems exceptional to me.  With 30,000 courses globally, that's the upper one third of one percent.  That isn't exceptional?     

I get the feeling you, Tom, don't like the constraints a template course puts on you.  Yet Old Mac, Merion and ANGC show how broad-ranging the concept can be.  I used to wish, in vain I'm sure, that you would be the one to recreate Lido, if that project ever got off the ground.  I thought and think no one could do it better than you, even if you were slightly gagging at the prospect.   

For years I've wondered what CPC would have looked like had Raynor lived to complete its design.  Where would the templates have gone?  Would the course get the sky-high rankings it does now, almost always counted among the top few in the world?   

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