[Steve_ Shaffer]

Another one bites the dust. Land too valuable plus membership problems...website down. Course closed.


https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/bedford/2017/08/23/elmwood-country-club-sold/591229001/


http://www.westchestermagazine.com/Westchester-Magazine/Tee-to-Green/July-2017/Elmwood-Country-Club-Announces-Sale-and-Layoffs/

[V. Kmetz]

Not too many on the board know/care about Elmwood so I wont belabor the mere sentiment of losing a course I've played and caddied many times


1. From a GCA perspective, its not too much of a loss nor was there a great of Tillie bones left to mourn. Tull undertook substantive routing/feature changes in the 50s and god knows the bunkering has been done and redone so many times in my 35-40 years of knowing the place that its hard to call it a Tillie with a straight-face.


2. The property is unfriendly, up and back hills, still laden with trees and since the 50s has had massive utility lines in disfiguring view in the eastern section of the course, crossing right through play on 6, 7 & 8.


3.  The valuable holes there were the 3s and 5s...#2 (an uphill semi blind deal of 125-140 yards) was always beguiling and the 490 yard 14th was true half-par hole that tempted more doubles than yielded birdies.


4.  Like Ridgeway (d. 2007) and Hampshire (soon) Elmwood would have to be in that lowest tier of Westchester Met clubs and that's no place to be...not good enough to draw those capital project funding initiation fees nor top staff talent, nor keep their upwardly mobile scions who are not as connected emotionally to their place as previous generations.


5. However it has enough (including a very nook and cranny byzantine sprawl of a campus) to be a winner as a County Course, and so I am a bit dismayed (as is the case of Ridgeway - fallow now for 10 years) that I never hear an ambitious plan for such. All five Westchester County courses are packed solid in season and certainly have room for 40,000 more rounds somewhere.


cheers   vk

[B.Ross]

learned to play golf at elmwood in the late 80s / early 90s as a very young kid. played it again once in high school 16 years ago. won't miss it.


not so sure hamsphire is going away any time soon, their membership situation has solidified a bit.


surprised this is the 1st post about ECC's closing because this is something that's been known since august.

[V. Kmetz]

BR,


Besides the germane GCA dish of a course which should've been plowed long ago, and besides the previous attempts at sale and the last change in 2010... did you see this


https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/2015/07/01/hampshire-development-golf-course/29575913/


?


cheers
vk

[B.Ross]

i stand corrected VK, did some googling and yes it does look like hampshire is in the throws of legal cases and  will become NLE in next 5-10 years, maybe sooner.


https://www.google.com/search?q=%22hampshire+country+club%22&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQz-Ccn9bZAhXOmOAKHRbaCzsQ_AUICigB&biw=2400&bih=1140

reason i thought otherwise was that i was there in December and learned they recently joined the hampton golf family of club mgmt (http://hampton.golf/clubs)

[jeffwarne]

Not too many on the board know/care about Elmwood so I wont belabor the mere sentiment of losing a course I've played and caddied many times

V. Kmetz,
Put me in the know/care column.
I won an Assistant's event there in 1992-my first year in the MET Section..

OT --but the best part was that that qualified me for the Tournament of at Apawamis (an absolute gem!-though I do wonder what modern tech has done to that compact place!--I got to play 5 rounds on it before losing in the finals in 19 holes)
Apawamis was one of many unheralded courses I had never heard of that I was introduced to competively that year that began my discovery of how many great hidden gems there are in Metro NY.


Elmwood had several interesting holes and some interesting terrain -I remember a particular downhill par 5-no doubt reduced to nothing by modern tech.


In the southeast Elmwood would be considered a hidden gem, in the northeast merely a second tier, and in Metro NY pretty far down the list-but still a fun course.

[V. Kmetz]

I meant that "know or care" statement in the way that many courses are provincially under the notice of so many posters, especially the international members/outside the their own region/country...


... aggravated, here, by a course that bears little resemblance to a Tillie...and hasn't since the 1950s.


Elmwood has personal value to me too, but not as a GCA exemplar of any sort...


I suppose I meant that it is more of a "golf economy/operation discussion" than an architectural one. (The loss/destruction of a Tillie).


When Hampshire (Dev. Emmet) goes...it will be no GCA loss...


cheers  vk

[V. Kmetz]

So BR asked me in the wings how sure I was that Tull did changes, why its not a true Tillie, etc... so I went looking.


Honestly, when I made the statement, I relied primarily on Bill Quirin's fine Golf Clubs of the MGA book (1997) which put Tull changes in the 50s (1952?) + my own light poking more than 15 years ago + anecdotal exchanges over the years... Quirin doesn't scratch the surface...


The short story is that the course now gone was/is absolutely no Tillie...the holes of the 2017 last version that can truly be said to be Tillie (routed-similar) holes are the current 1 (always 1), 7, 8, 9 (his 16, 17, 18 mostly)10 (always), 11, 12 (barely his 14th, 15th) 13, (his 11th), 14 (his 4th), 17 (his 2nd - sorta) 18 (his 3rd)...that's 11 holes of routing/general size...and two are a real stretch; none have but a bunker "area" that's the same, not to mention fine details, a near complete absence of trees, and much easier green-tee walks...




The long story is that this golf property was first called Pelhamhurst (ca.?...at least pre-25) and it was a really antiquey 18 (not 9 as Quirin intones)...there's a great 1926 shot of it available through the Westchester County archives, which might be catching it the moment before Tillinghast is brought in.


Then organized as Elmwood and Tillie makes his course...knowing the property as I do and matching it with the aerial perspective, you find a signatory gem...replete with the connected fairways...dramatic bunkering...and varied green margins...sensible routing detail (tees to greens)...the 1940 and 1954 aerials are a great capture of this Tillie course...which would be a crying shame if this were the course now lost to____fill in your word_____________.


Somewhere between 1954 - 1960 (when Quirin says a new clubhouse was built) Tull (or somebody) changed the course forever...new property was bought in the eastern end, Tillinghast's short par 4 8th and par 3 9th were lost to the driving range and clubhouse facility expansion...an entirely new (current) 2nd, 4th, 5th, 16th, holes were created, while the current 6th, 11th, 12th and 15th holes were lifted from, effectively killing, Tillie's 12 and 13 and most of his 14th and 15th... and his 6th (the area of #3) and 7th (gone,and whose green was left of the current 2nd tee) holes are played in the opposite direction....


Then the power lines came through that eastern section of the course...


I'd love to put up the 1926, 1940, 1954, and 1960 aerials, but right now I have not the competence.


But that's the poop and the whole poop and nothing but the poop...


cheers   vk

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Legal battle now. Elmwood v. Old Oaks


By: Rob Harris
Until its recent closing, Elmwood Country Club was a fixture in New York’s Westchester County for more than 90 years. In a lawsuit filed last week, Elmwood blames its demise on a neighboring, and equally venerable institution, Old Oaks Country Club.

http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/?p=6715

[V. Kmetz]

Thank you Steve for posting...though this gets into decidedly non-GCA OT spin-offs...it is noteworthy for the industry matters that often course through the board...


If I can boil it down:


1. The long-time Elmwood GM was recruited by a headhunter, on behalf of Old Oaks and ended up leaving the Elmwood post a year before that Elmwood contract was up...

nothing that unusual there, but because of the various confidentiality, non-disclosure and non-competing aspects of such contracts, things can get slippery -- for in the duties of a GM, who is now the new captain of a competing ship, and knows the local industry landscape, has former clubs' member and outing contacts as a matter of competence, who can say where the proprietary obligations end for the old employer and begin for the new one.


2. The suit (which is directed at the GM, the headhunter and the new employer Old Oaks) says that in the new post (GM of Old Oaks) both the club and their new hire undermined Elmwood by targetting Elmwood's member roster, outing prospects, even personnel and (if I'm reading this correctly) spread prior knowledge of Elmwood's move towards (likelihood) of closure to such parties to attract the parties to Old Oaks, to Old Oaks benefit and Elmwood's damage.


An amplification of #1 but more slippery still... because it begs the question of whether or not executing new (and normal) fiduciary GM duties to a new employer, such as bolstering membership, getting experienced staff, scheduling outings is a violation of old fiduciary duties, which (because of non-disclosure, confidentiality agreements) have life beyond the end of a contract.


3. The headhunter and Old Oaks are named because this suit primarily (again, if I'm reading this correctly) alleges that this "violation" was "suborned" by the headhunter and Old Oaks as part of the recruitment process of Elmwood's GM...that her knowledge and action to these ends (to be able to advantage her knowledge of Elmwood's pending demise) was fundamental to her recruitment.


This seems akin to a hypothetical where one NFL team is in fiscal trouble, but it isn't public yet, and another team in their division hires the GM of the troubled franchise to make a meal out of it.


4. There's other petty, lesser stuff about other things the GM did, but they seem to be there to bolster the appearance of her impropriety.


Going Forward


If what I've put out here is essentially the true terms of the controversy, I can speculate on these items:


1. Might other Westchester/Met clubs support (saying that Old Oaks got illicit first dibs) the plaintiff or back up Old Oaks, because the hiring practices that Old Oaks used here are not that unusual?


2. Will sought damages (whether awarded or denied) be limited to what may have been damaged in 2017 (the calendar year when it mattered) or will these respondents liability extend to the whole enterprise of Elmwood failing....e.g. Was Elmwood going to close with or without this or is the liability of the respondents going to be extended into their closure in toto? Did these actions hasten Elmwood's end or cause it?


3. GMs and their contract clubs are going to be reviewing their agreements and the headhunting/consulting industry (which has been bubbling for the last 20 years) is going to tread carefully for a time, at least until this is resolved.


cheers   vk

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

That is an interesting claim by Elmwood .  Old Oaks is quite a few levels above Elmwood on the country club pecking order!  The idea of poaching members and events seems unlikely because Old Oaks is probably the most expensive club in Westchester County for annual dues, and features the best food among all the clubs!

[V. Kmetz]

That is an interesting claim by Elmwood .  Old Oaks is quite a few levels above Elmwood on the country club pecking order!  The idea of poaching members and events seems unlikely because Old Oaks is probably the most expensive club in Westchester County for annual dues, and features the best food among all the clubs!

I understand this gist on its face, but when you drill down there's something more intricate at work...

• Many outing sponsors are loyal to a long-time host club and the member-sponsor from that club, no matter the general esteem of that club -
• the "competition" for scheduling really comes from "newer" outings, from changes in the outing sponsor organization/event planning staff or from a significant price change of the long-time host...not poaching another club's outing.

As to member-poaching...

• all area clubs have been pro-active in changing dues and initiation structures, different classes of membership, corporate and trial memberships and how assessments are billed (as well as their frequency).
• though I too would have put Old Oaks on a higher tier than Elmwood, when there's significant trouble opportunity in a club, even higher tier clubs have specifically altered membership terms, length and amount of payments for members of that troubled club...to attract them in.

Old Oaks is not the most expensive club in Westchester, maybe not Top 10, and the food is like most clubs in the Met...excellent...no more or less so than any other...


This case is really not about "causing" Elmwood's demise, but hastening it and damaging their final year of operation and terms of their dissolution...and that the damage was caused by an unethical process that suborned a violation of the former GMs fiduciary and confidentiality responsibilities in and around the actual "life" of that contract.


cheers  vk

[Steve Lapper]

That is an interesting claim by Elmwood .  Old Oaks is quite a few levels above Elmwood on the country club pecking order!  The idea of poaching members and events seems unlikely because Old Oaks is probably the most expensive club in Westchester County for annual dues, and features the best food among all the clubs!

I understand this gist on its face, but when you drill down there's something more intricate at work...

• Many outing sponsors are loyal to a long-time host club and the member-sponsor from that club, no matter the general esteem of that club -
• the "competition" for scheduling really comes from "newer" outings, from changes in the outing sponsor organization/event planning staff or from a significant price change of the long-time host...not poaching another club's outing.

As to member-poaching...

• all area clubs have been pro-active in changing dues and initiation structures, different classes of membership, corporate and trial memberships and how assessments are billed (as well as their frequency).
• though I too would have put Old Oaks on a higher tier than Elmwood, when there's significant trouble opportunity in a club, even higher tier clubs have specifically altered membership terms, length and amount of payments for members of that troubled club...to attract them in.

Old Oaks is not the most expensive club in Westchester, maybe not Top 10, and the food is like most clubs in the Met...excellent...no more or less so than any other...


This case is really not about "causing" Elmwood's demise, but hastening it and damaging their final year of operation and terms of their dissolution...and that the damage was caused by an unethical process that suborned a violation of the former GMs fiduciary and confidentiality responsibilities in and around the actual "life" of that contract.


cheers  vk

   VK,


        You are spot on in terms of the outing dynamics, however it can be said that most every club in the Met Section has become more competitive about attracting, and retaining, outings. Private club economic conditions being what they are these days has forced them to compete with each other, compared to the times pre-2009.


        As for membership poaching, it's even more nuanced than has been covered. Once significant problems begin haunting older private clubs (i.e. lack of new membership acquisition, existing renewals, financial or managerial problems, etc..), gossip spreads both internally and externally. Shrewd members examine options and alternatives and neighborhood clubs may well offer (usually covertly) group packages designed to lure folks over. Only the rarest of the nearby elite (i.e. WF, Sleepy Hollow, Quaker Ridge or Century) would exempt themselves from making such a consideration.


      Knowing a bit about Elmwood during it's "death throes," and almost making a play to buy it for it's future development value, it appears the primary impediment precluding it from continual operation was it's unionized labor force. I'm not opining on unions v. non-union, but the cost structure here was unduly high and very uncompetitive for any golf course operator partner to subsume.


    I view this whole GM suit as a pure $$ grab on behalf of the Plaintiffs. My guess is that any judge in his or her right mind will throw out most, if not all, of this suit upon first motions. We shall see.


   FWIW...The group that did succeed in buying this club acted 100% honorably. I know them reasonably well.

[V. Kmetz]

Steve,


I know you know your stuff in this area and once again you speak the truth...


A unionized work force(s) worked well in a day gone by, when club membership was grounded in something more year round/more social-centric to the lives of the members. Now there are more gross jobs, but they are seasonal, distributed to seasonal staff, foreign imports/teenagers/part-timers and the bigger jobs are resume builders for some bigger still jobs down the line...


The old-way (not just unions [though my grandma was the locker room woman at three clubs under 32E Service employess]) made sense for the now-disappeared culture I'm referencing... Dinner events attracted 200+ regularly, who had to be kicked out at 1 am...members attended all manner of off season things like NYEve parties, Super Bowls, Masters parties...at Jewish clubs the UJA/UJF charity days were massive and special events, that the permanent staff ginned up for as well. That is all gone now, except for an aging/legacy membership it is just another disposable pleasure that competes with other disposable pleasures.


As for outings, once again you're right...the worm has turned/is turning...30 years ago... outings were infrequent, and they were often advanced by one or two member sponsors who were really invested in the enterprise...now (more and more) the member sponsor is a perfunctory signatory...and they are recruited and sold like a Perillo package...and there are specific outing brokers/organizers who act as middleman for the clubs and the organizations...even WF has an outing every Monday for 28 Mondays/day after holidays...the club I still do most of my caddying at now (I know Steve knows which one) had 6 total outings my first nine years there(!), now has 9-10 a year.


It was so much better years ago.


...And as another matter of fiscal health/prosperity/capitalism/feudalism of it all (which is far afield from topic but worth airing anyway) one of the nilhistic cyclical things that causes this new "we need to alter things to be attractive" is the idea that changing prices, deals, ages of vesting, categories of members rots out the espirit de corps of a club as a social unit...when you have some people in under recent  terms X...and a 25 year member who has contributed gross and continuing under Y terms and you have 12 year member Z who came in when the prices were block buster (1999 - 2006)...there is cause for unhappiness... in this genernalized scenario, it is not understood that even among an affluent club membership, there are degrees of disposable wealth and people are mindful of such things... and it hollows out the very fabric of the club.


Some people come and just hit the club for a specific purpose and keep their use to just that general budget...they only joined HERE because the price was made attractive and/or some friends/associates of their age peerage had done so recently...but after the low price initiation terms are exhausted and or personal circumstances change to any degree, they could leave in a bang in 4-6 years... Clubs used to replenish or add 66% from the families within...now as soon as children reach 30 or 35 or 40 or whatever gerrymandered new full-paying category is devised, they are off to Anglebrook or one of a handful of clubs offering a great deal THAT year... and play America's Guest at every club in their area while they wait on getting into one.


Steve, please find me a job  [size=78%]whereby I could go partly incognito into service of a club and then report back to a venture/consulting man like yourself about what's going on... a half season of work and a weekend with the last 5 years of board and committee minutes, I'd have the lyrics to which you folks put to the music in numbers.[/size]


cheers  vk

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