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Adam Lawrence

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Modern courses with geometric features
« on: February 13, 2018, 12:38:15 PM »
Working on a piece for the next GCA on the above subject, to run alongside my piece on Dana Fry's new South course at Arcadia Bluffs.


Would appreciate tips on modern courses that employ such features. AB South does, so does Brian Silva's Black Creek in Chattanooga, so does Bob Cupp's Palmetto Hall. Others?


Cheers


Adam
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Peter Flory

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 01:51:29 PM »
How geometric are you looking for?  Squared off greens, or more? 

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 02:07:33 PM »
Adam,


George Waters and I created some geometric features at The Derrick Club in Edmonton, AB. The delineation between fairways and greens at most holes is a straight line with 90-degree front corners. And, there are many Waters' shaped bunkers out there that are square and rectangular, too.


There wasn't a single course in western Canada with that architectural style. We were trying to make The Derrick unique in that market, based on our affection for many of the older courses back east where we both grew up playing.
jeffmingay.com

Jason Topp

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 02:49:52 PM »
I am not sure you can tell from the website but I found River Hall in Alva, FL to have a lot of geometric features:


https://www.riverhallcc.com/


I liked it

Paul Carey

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 02:55:15 PM »
Trey Kemp of Colligan Golf used a number of 90 corners of greens at Rockwood in Fort Worth and I believe Stevens Park in Dallas.

Rees Milikin

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 03:03:11 PM »
I am not sure you can tell from the website but I found River Hall in Alva, FL to have a lot of geometric features:


https://www.riverhallcc.com/


I liked it


To piggyback on this recommendation, I would add another DL3 course, Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA.

Peter Flory

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 03:52:08 PM »
Butterfield Country Club went really geometric with their greens in the Smyers renovation.  Maybe 8-9 are either completely rectangular or have right angles and are sort of triangle like.  All the tee boxes are squared off.  The bunkers are free form.

But with all the square angles, the land is hilly enough that you don't notice it while playing.  Appears organic. 

For instance, this green is very geometric- sort of a pentagon shape:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 03:53:40 PM by Peter Flory »

Brian Finn

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 04:03:06 PM »
Butterfield Country Club went really geometric with their greens in the Smyers renovation.  Maybe 8-9 are either completely rectangular or have right angles and are sort of triangle like.  All the tee boxes are squared off.  The bunkers are free form.
But with all the square angles, the land is hilly enough that you don't notice it while playing.  Appears organic. 
For instance, this green is very geometric- sort of a pentagon shape:
Wow!  I just looked at the aerial view on google maps.  I have never seen greens with such perfectly right angles and sharp edges.  Very cool look, in my opinion.  I imagine this course is a great example for Adam's piece.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Joe Hancock

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 04:38:15 PM »
Are we talking geometric features, or geometric grass/ mow patterns? Big difference, IMO.


For instance, I’m much more in favor of a rectangular tee(grass/mow providing the geometry) on a natural looking landform than a rectangular tee on a truncated pyramid landform(both the grass line and the landform are geometric). Of course, no defined tee(by means of grass/ mow pattern) on a natural looking landform would be my first choice, but that’s not geometric at all.


The picture posted of Butterfield looks like it’s just the grass lines that are geometric, so maybe a few superintendents later and they won’t be.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 04:39:42 PM »
Robert Berthet built a very geometric course somewhere in France.... Dunkirk I think
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:42:11 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
He did, although the thought process/motivations were somewhat different in Robert’s case — he was inspired by the fortifications of the great French engineer Vauban
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 11:49:32 PM »
Regarding Butterfield, I'm actually amazed at how much more squared off everything is after looking at the aerials compared to what I noticed while playing.  From the air, it looks like it was designed by an engineer.  From the ground, it seems free flowing.  Based on what I've read about the new Arcadia course, it sounded like it would be similar in that respect. 


Here are some examples:
First tee boxes on the red nine and the white nine






This is a green, not a tee box



And here is a typical look from ground level:

John_Cullum

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 09:15:59 AM »
Sanctuary Cove
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Blake Conant

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 09:32:57 AM »
Andy Staples did some cool old school stuff with Meadowbrook in Detroit.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 11:56:37 AM »
Another would be Steve Smyers Eagle course at TwinEagles.  Many geometric greens and rectangular tees.  Below are three aerials of greens on the 3rd, 4th and 5th holes - a sequence of a triangular green, a rectangular green, and my favorite, a green that is an arc of an annulus.  If you want to see ground level pictures, they are in this thread:


 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54502.msg1257310.html#msg1257310





















jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »
Palmetto Hall on Hilton Head had a geometric course -Cupp I think
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Angela Moser

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 09:00:01 PM »
Noria GC, Morocco
very geometric Biarritz


I have some nice pics, but somehow I’m too blonde to share... always get that error message.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 09:33:41 PM »
Noria GC, Morocco
very geometric Biarritz


That is the only one of them I've seen [in pictures] where the geometric shapes make sense to me, because they are tied into the geometry of the buildings that are part of the puzzle.


(Actually, the 18th at Stonewall (Old) is also that way, although we did not make the green with square corners.)


I don't really understand the fascination of the course in Bryan Izatt's pictures, i.e. having square-cornered shapes that you don't even notice in 3-D on the ground.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 03:12:07 AM »

.....................
 


.....................................


I don't really understand the fascination of the course in Bryan Izatt's pictures, i.e. having square-cornered shapes that you don't even notice in 3-D on the ground.

Granted, in 3-D the square corners are not noticeable until you are quite close to the green.  On the other hand, in 3-D on the ground, the geometric shapes of the greens are noticeable from approach shot distance if you bother to try to observe the design and strategy.

Steve Smyers provided a guide to the course with his design philosophy which I won't bore you with.  He did provide the rational for the geometric shapes of some of the greens.

Hole 3:  "The triangular shape of the putting surface mimics the space it occupies, where tree lines to the right and behind the green meet at a 90-degree angle and a wetland to the left forms the third side."

Hole 4:  "The area we had for this hole was long and narrow so we created a long, narrow green"

Hole 5:  This green is described as a reverse Redan and I suppose that the arc of an annulus was a geometric shape that fit that kind of green in Smyers' mind.  His drawing of this green does not show the squared off corners.  I suppose that was added in the build and it does provide some consistency to the design, although not all the corners of all the greens are squared. 

As for the fascination, I don't know if you mean Smyers' or mine and others who play the course.  In the preamble to the course guide there are these following statements.

“Classic architecture – the architecture that we associate with the Golden Age – wasn’t simply plopping down features in random fashion. It was all about fitting a golf course, a golf hole, even each specific golf shot to the existing landscape,” Smyers explains. “That is the very definition of classic architecture – fitting golf to its environment.”

“Our primary objective throughout this entire project was to relate the golf course to the landscape, to make it tie into the landscape so that any features we developed would allow you to read the golf course,” Smyers explained. “All of the shapes out here are derived from the landscape. We studied the landscape first and figured out how the strategy of each hole would emanate from that,” he said.

No mentions of squared corners anywhere in the piece, or geometric shapes either. Perhaps he felt they were indicative of Golden Age designs.

As a player I find the course interesting and challenging.  Part of the interest and the challenge is the shape of the holes and greens and the options provided. Many of the members don't care for the course so much as the green complexes can be very vexing.  They tend to gravitate to the more modern championship style Nicklaus course, which surprisingly is less difficult in my view.  The course is one that I think requires some analysis and study to enjoy playing.

The LPGA championship came to the Smyers' course for one year and didn't return.  The story goes that they found the course too hard.



 

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 03:18:52 AM »

I am amazed no one has mentioned Desmond Muirhead (or I have missed it) who is surely responsible for a body of work which took geometric features to the border of bizarre.


On another note would the many perfectly round bunkers at Carnoustie be considered as such features?

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 03:25:59 AM »

Working on a piece for the next GCA on the above subject, to run alongside my piece on Dana Fry's new South course at Arcadia Bluffs.


Would appreciate tips on modern courses that employ such features. AB South does, so does Brian Silva's Black Creek in Chattanooga, so does Bob Cupp's Palmetto Hall. Others?


Cheers


Adam


Drew Rogers' work at Miromar Lakes last summer has a lot of geometric shapes.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 09:42:52 AM »

As for the fascination, I don't know if you mean Smyers' or mine and others who play the course.



I don't get anyone's fascination with it.  Those square corners aren't easier to build, or easier to mow.  They don't affect play [compared to a similar shape with a rounded corner], and they don't make the course look different, until you are right up close.


So, to me, the primary reason for choosing them was probably just to draw attention to the place as "different," even though it is a completely irrelevant kind of different, per the above.


This is not to disparage the course at all ... the course looks pretty good from the few pictures you've shown.  But to say that the narrow space for that 4th green suggested a sharp-edged rectangle, when you look at the shaping around it, sounds silly to me.

Sean_A

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 10:08:00 AM »
Tom

Isn't this the same sort discussion with bunker shapes and styles?  Just a matter of preference. I have always liked squared off tees, but prefer if natural platforms are used where they are 100% cut or fairways feeding to tees.  As I say, a preference, though I never considered squared off greens very much.  I spose it could be very cool looking if a wrap-around bunkers were implemented, but as you say...the actual play of the course isn't effected either way.  All that said...I don't see what is wrong in going for a different look. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 10:33:52 AM »
TPC Sawgrass has always seemed to me to have some geometrical inclinations.
Atb

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Modern courses with geometric features
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 10:37:56 AM »
I suppose there should be space for cubism, fauvism, brutalism, abstract expressionism and all the other isms in golf architecture as much as the built environment.
I'm a big fan of symbolism in landscape design and found the inspiration for Muirhead's designs utterly fascinating. The execution maybe not so much.
All Design should be about pushing boundaries though.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.