Another Distance thread...but now it looks like the R&A is getting serious

[John Kavanaugh]

You guys are just pissed that a 13 handicap tore up Pebble this weekend. Amazing what talent paired with modern equipment can do.

Actually, what that shows is that when a legit amateur establishes a legit hdcp at a legit golf club (Whisper Rock) from legit yardage (7000+) holing everything out, then goes to PB at 6000 yards with almost no wind, he can indeed tear it up.

I read that just several months ago (September 2017) Fitzgerald was a 6.6 handicap.  So what it may actually show is that his handicap at Pebble, though technically accurate, didn't really reflect his ability to play golf or even his fairly recent history of doing so.

Go to Ghin.com as it is all public record. His handicap history looks legit. It would make sense that a world class athlete lowers his index in the off season. It also makes sense that he performs better under pressure in front of large crowds.

The only note I would make is that he is posting scores from the mens tees. Not the 7000 yarders as implied above.

[John Kavanaugh]

If anything I would say the performance of Larry Fitzgerald is a shining example of everything that is right about modern equipment. The soul of the game has always been based on how an average golfer can compete with the best on our chosen field of play. We witnessed a 13 handicap keeping up shot after shot. I found it inspiring. The only cost…an extra set of tees.

[Garland Bayley]

What? So you'd have Dustin Johnson averaging 220 yards?

...

Nothing wrong with that. As long as he got the ball in the hole in the least strokes,  he'd still be world #1.

Cross over holes created to fight the distance explosion could revert to their original configuration. Mindless courses created for and by tour pros could be put out of business as they should be. Etc.

[Garland Bayley]

If anything I would say the performance of Larry Fitzgerald is a shining example of everything that is right about modern equipment. ...

What a bunch of bs.

[Thomas Dai]

What? So you'd have Dustin Johnson averaging 220 yards?

Nothing wrong with that. As long as he got the ball in the hole in the least strokes,  he'd still be world #1.
Cross over holes created to fight the distance explosion could revert to their original configuration. Mindless courses created for and by tour pros could be put out of business as they should be. Etc.

+1
Atb

[Garland Bayley]

So any speculation on what they'll address specifically?


Not to beat a dead horse, but seems it would be easiest to implement a tourny ball and not even get involved on the equipment (club) side...

We have read on this website in the past about the USGA experimenting with a ball with more spin. They used a ball that was in production at the time which insures they didn't have one that spun as much as a balata ball off driver.

[Kalen Braley]

If anything I would say the performance of Larry Fitzgerald is a shining example of everything that is right about modern equipment. The soul of the game has always been based on how an average golfer can compete with the best on our chosen field of play. We witnessed a 13 handicap keeping up shot after shot. I found it inspiring. The only cost…an extra set of tees.

JK,


I can agree here on principle....but we all know sure as shit, if it hadn't of been Larry Fitzgerald, sports celeb and all....he would have been shown the door after the tourny for sand bagging and told not to return.


They shot -41 and his partner was only -13, which leaves Larry with the other 28.  So that's 28/4 = 7.  He shoots 7 strokes better on average, 4 days in a row at a tourney with PGA pins and setup.   


Yes he would certainly have got the big fat boot....

[Garland Bayley]

...

My point is that effectively, a broader range of yardage has been made more interesting for handicap players with the longer ball.  I don't think this is refutable...

If I understand what you mean, it is refutable because it is the opposite of what is true.

[Garland Bayley]

If anything I would say the performance of Larry Fitzgerald is a shining example of everything that is right about modern equipment. The soul of the game has always been based on how an average golfer can compete with the best on our chosen field of play. We witnessed a 13 handicap keeping up shot after shot. I found it inspiring. The only cost…an extra set of tees.

JK,


I can agree here on principle....but we all know sure as shit, if it hadn't of been Larry Fitzgerald, sports celeb and all....he would have been shown the door after the tourny for sand bagging and told not to return.


They shot -41 and his partner was only -13, which leaves Larry with the other 28.  So that's 28/4 = 7.  He shoots 7 strokes better on average, 4 days in a row at a tourney with PGA pins and setup.   


Yes he would certainly have got the big fat boot....

He pars 7 holes where he gets a stroke, and his partner pars or birdies the rest. Very possible IMO.

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,


I think you're forgetting what a handicap is....your BEST last 10 rounds of 20.  So on average two of his rounds should have been throw aways, where he's shooting high 80s.  When I was a 12 years ago, parring 7 holes or better in one round is something I only did a few times per year.  But Larry does this 4 days in a row, on 7 of the tougher holes on the course? In tournament conditions?


BS....

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


When you were a 12 years ago you didn't have modern fitted equipment. Not to mention...we can all catch a football in the back yard. LF is wired different than us. He might have needed the tournament conditions to focus.


I'll say this also. There is no room to hide for a sand bagger at Whisper Rock.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


This article explain its all pretty well I thought.  A few things to note:


1)  He was in fact a 6 just in September right before the season started.  And given he presumably played less in the season his handicap went up.
2)  However, once the season ended, he played a crap ton of golf before Pebble...and only 6 of those were at his Home course. 
3)  IT seems implausible he was shooting high 70s for a few days and then high 90s a few days later.  I'm a HH and even I've never been that inconsistent over such a short period of time.
4) Which would lead me to believe he was sand bagging those scores to get his cap up because he knew the most prestigous Am tourney was on the horizon.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/larry-fitzgerald-won-the-pebble-beach-pro-am-by-so-much-that-people-are-questioning-his-handicap




 

[Brian Finn]

I've been very reluctant to weigh in here, but I thought I would provide some relevant info, along with my own opinions.

Streelman shot -13 for the tournament by making 15 birdies, 2 bogeys, and 55 pars.  That is about as good as a pro partner can do, not only contributing 15 birdies, but also parring virtually every other hole, leaving his erratic amateur partner a lot of leeway.  Basically, LF only needed to contribute on 26 out of 72 holes (36%).

 - As a team, they shot 58 (-14), 60 (-11), 68 (-4), and 60 (-12).
 - Streelman contributed 7, 2, 2, and 4 birdies
 - Leaving LF to make 7, 9, 2, and 8 stroke contributions
 - By my rough math, this means LF shot approximately (depending on how many birdies/doubles+):
          - 83-86 in round 1 (9.6-12.0 diff at spyglass)
          - 80-83 in round 2 (9.1-11.8 diff at MPCC)
          - 88-91 in round 3 (14.3-16.9 diff at PB)
          - 80-83 in round 4 (7.4-10.0 diff at PB)

For a guy that plays 80% or more of his golf from Feb-Aug, who has proven 'potential' to be a low/mid single digit player, but just recently finished his 6 month golf "off-season" I don't see how this is crazy.  It isn't sandbagging, in my opinion. 

[Peter Pallotta]

It's a big world out there, with room enough for many differences. (I'm prepping two gamer sets: one old - Spalding Tournament Model irons and Powerbilt Citation woods; and one new - Titleist 983K woods and Titleist 755 irons. I can't wait for spring!) When did they say, who talked of Rome, that there was room enough for but one man? In the name of all the gods at once: upon what meat does this our Ceasar feed that he has grown so great?

Just invent a new golf ball for the tours (that flies less and spins more), but let the rest of us buy it too if we want. Better and more interesting pro game, more choice and ways of having fun for average golfers, some brilliant 6700 yard courses (old & new) become relevant for the top 1%., and manufacturers have something new to sell.

[John Kavanaugh]

You just can't live your life believing that everyone who betters you at any endeavor cheated. What hurts more than the loss is when you discover that they most likely either worked harder than you or just flat out have more talent. I'm very disappointed that Digest would print such a hack piece.

[Brian Finn]

You just can't live your life believing that everyone who betters you at any endeavor cheated. What hurts more than the loss is when you discover that they most likely either worked harder than you or just flat out have more talent. I'm very disappointed that Digest would print such a hack piece.

I agree on all points.  Not much written at Golf Digest these days is anything but disappointing.  Just click on the next article (RELATED: What golf clubs celebrities played at Pebble Beach) to see what real journalistic excellence sounds like!

[Kalen Braley]

John,


If you think getting 7, 9, and 8 net birdies, in 3 of 4 rounds on difficult Tour setup courses is normal....then so be it. I actually agree with Brian that Larry is actually a good player, who was still more or less a 6-7 last weekend.


Which would have meant he would have 1, 3, and 2 net birds over the same 3 rounds....


P.S.  Years ago, someone on this site posted an odds chart of beating your handicap like that over several rounds lumped together. As I recall, doing something like that (5+ strokes better over 3 rounds ) was less than a 1% probability..

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


I can beat my handicap by 20% any day I choose simply by showing up early and spending an hour at the short game practice facility. I don't do it because it is called work. Sometimes a guy just choose to play well. That is not cheating.


My buddies and I call it "Secretly Shagging".

[Kalen Braley]

Heres a link to the chart.


Using the two best scores chart, his scores were:


2480 to 1
3871 to 1
9180 to 1.


Doing this three rounds out of 4, the probability has gotta be in the hundreds of thousands to 1

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html



Sorry, his handicap is totally busted...

[Tim Martin]

I heard Andy Garcia still can’t get a legit game. It happens.

[Brian Finn]

John,

If you think getting 7, 9, and 8 net birdies, in 3 of 4 rounds on difficult Tour setup courses is normal....then so be it. I actually agree with Brian that Larry is actually a good player, who was still more or less a 6-7 last weekend.

Which would have meant he would have 1, 3, and 2 net birds over the same 3 rounds....

P.S.  Years ago, someone on this site posted an odds chart of beating your handicap like that over several rounds lumped together. As I recall, doing something like that (5+ strokes better over 3 rounds ) was less than a 1% probability..

Contributing 7, 9, and 8 net birdies in 3 (out of 4) rounds absolutely does not mean that he beat his index by that many strokes (or at all, for that matter).  You are ignoring the fact that he could make that many net birdies in the 3 rounds and play the other 30 holes 30-60 over par.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


I think you're forgetting what a handicap is....your BEST last 10 rounds of 20.  So on average two of his rounds should have been throw aways, where he's shooting high 80s.  When I was a 12 years ago, parring 7 holes or better in one round is something I only did a few times per year.  But Larry does this 4 days in a row, on 7 of the tougher holes on the course? In tournament conditions?


BS....

If you remember our match, I won by paring holes you bogeyed, an lost by doubling holes you bogeyed. Who won the match?
bs back at you Mr. Bogeyman.

[JMEvensky]

Peter, never thought I'd see a WS quote in a discussion about sandbagging. Waiting for you to draw a Larry Fitzgerald/Othello analogy.

[BHoover]

Peter, never thought I'd see a WS quote in a discussion about sandbagging. Waiting for you to draw a Larry Fitzgerald/Othello analogy.

I was way off. Here I am, thinking that was a line from a Vic Damone album. My bad.

[Garland Bayley]

Heres a link to the chart.


Using the two best scores chart, his scores were:


2480 to 1
3871 to 1
9180 to 1.


Doing this three rounds out of 4, the probability has gotta be in the hundreds of thousands to 1

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html



Sorry, his handicap is totally busted...

Kalen,

Wake up! You are embarrassing yourself. He was playing best ball with a tour pro.