Reverse Pebble Beach

[Jason Topp]

I am intrigued by the question of whether Pebble Beach would have been a better course if it had been built in reverse. 


You play 1-3 as they exist now. 
Start at 16 green and go backwards all the way to 4 tee.  Play 17 and 18 as they now exist.  Greens and tees would be adjusted to maximize drama.   


This configurations would put the ocean holes on the back nine rather than in the window where television coverage now carries college basketball.  I suspect 11 would be a much better hole played backwards.  You would lose 8 but gain a hole from around 8 green to 7 green.  I suspect a reverse number 7 could be built that would maintain drama, albeit in an uphill fashion. 

I would think hole 4 in reverse would suffer but think 9 and 10 might be better playing uphill and 11 would improve downhill. 


I would never advocate in favor of radically changing an iconic course but I do enjoy trying to imagine these sorts of alterations.  My usual conclusion is that the course would not improve.  In the right hands, I think Pebble Beach might.


What do you think?

[David Stewart]

I think this topic has been discussed here before, but I've always found it an interesting idea.

I always thought leaving 1-8 as they are would work, then reverse 9-13, then keep 14-18 the same. From 8 green you would jump inland and play 13 in reverse (as #9), followed by 12 (as #10), 11 (as #11), 10 (as #12), and 9 (as #13) before heading to 14 tee. This would have 11 playing towards the water with a green on the ocean, and 12 and 13 would then also be on the ocean. It would break up the current routing with consecutive holes on the cliffs and also give you one more green on the water.

[Steve Lang]

   Jason,


Someone would probably sue, claiming it needed CEQA Review to build a new green, bunker or fairway...


Also, Tiger could probably do it like he did taking existing C&C bones at Blaketree Nat'l., reversing some non-C&C holes, discarding others, adding some new ones and Voila, Bluejack Nat.'l...  and they could charge more money to boot!  (yeh, sour grapes)

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think a reverse from the current 8th would be an improvement. Not sure if 16/15/14 reverse are workable, they are not better IMO. 7th backwards is not a patch, perhaps 8 would be better though, as you point out a reverse 4 would not be great.


After 8 walk to green 13 play the hole in reverse (better hole)
Hole 10 would be the 12 the backwards, very slightly uphill instead of downhill, though I think the current 12th is awful and a wasted opportunity (the reversed hole can't be worse than the current one)
Hole 11 is the real winner with the ocean backdrop for the approach (current 11 is just an ok hole)
Hole 12 is 10 in reverse, and is probably the same quality.
Hole 13 is 9 in reverse and is probably the same quality.


It must gave been suggested. Perhaps I am out with my thinking the 9th and 10th are just as good backwards.

[Jason Topp]

The idea of starting after 8 is definitely an improvement on my idea.  You keep 4, 6, 7 and 8.


I do think 9 and 10 could be designed to be just as good or better in reverse. 


Others can look at it through this link.  Just click "all" to see the entire course or focus in on individual holes:

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/pebblebeach/aerial.htm?next=tour.htm#

[Tom_Doak]

Yeah that stretch of 8-9-10 really needs to be broken up 


Reversing 10 and 9 means playing both of them uphill and not having the view of the beach that makes them such icons.  I'm pretty sure 9 would not be as great a hole, even if 10 is a wash.  I don't think that improving the background for #11 would be worth that.

[Ben Stephens]

Interesting topic Jason.


In a dream world I would have had the 1st parallel and right next to the 18th, the same for the 2nd with the 3rd


12th facing the ocean where the maintenance area is and 13 made longer.


Holes 15 going from 14th tee towards 5th green (short par 4) and 16 parallel to 4 and 5 but in opposite direction as a long par 4


That would create ocean views from every hole.


Move the all houses and buildings further inland.   


Would be interesting to see when Pebble originally opened and how built up it was then.

[George Pazin]

Yeah that stretch of 8-9-10 really needs to be broken up 


Reversing 10 and 9 means playing both of them uphill and not having the view of the beach that makes them such icons.  I'm pretty sure 9 would not be as great a hole, even if 10 is a wash.  I don't think that improving the background for #11 would be worth that.

I'm all for replacing downhill holes with uphill holes, sounds good to me.

[Jim_Kennedy]

[Michael Whitaker]

And lose this walk... I don’t think so!

[Jim Nugent]

Yeah that stretch of 8-9-10 really needs to be broken up 


Reversing 10 and 9 means playing both of them uphill and not having the view of the beach that makes them such icons.  I'm pretty sure 9 would not be as great a hole, even if 10 is a wash.  I don't think that improving the background for #11 would be worth that.

Tom, if you had a free hand there, would you re-route anything? 

[Tim Leahy]

Yea.that Mona Lisa chick would look so much hotter with short hair.
They have added a tee for the Open to make 10 a drivable par 4.

[Matthew Rose]

I thought about this yesterday during one of the gazillion blimp shots. Not sure it would really be worth it.

[Kalen Braley]

Seem like Routing 10-7 at Pebble in the opposite direction would be on par with doing same to 18-15 at Cypress....


I'm not sure which would be worse...

[Jim Hoak]

When Stranz redid the MPCC Shore course, he reversed the course in large part because he wanted right-hand golfers playing the ocean holes to be facing the ocean as the played those holes.  Reversing Pebble Beach would do the opposite--as well as mainly making them play uphill rather than downhill.  Both stupid ideas.

[Thomas Dai]

I recall the present routing of Pebble Beach being criticised as the 18th plays into the setting sun. Just a recollection.
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Thomas,


So does 16 at CPC.  Given all the other pluses to both of those holes otherwise, seems a fairly minor quibble.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I recall the present routing of Pebble Beach being criticised as the 18th plays into the setting sun. Just a recollection.
Atb

The sun is often in the wrong place, it just depends on your tee time.

[Kalen Braley]

I recall the present routing of Pebble Beach being criticised as the 18th plays into the setting sun. Just a recollection.
Atb

The sun is often in the wrong place, it just depends on your tee time.

...and the time of year....

[SB]

12th facing the ocean where the maintenance area is and 13 made longer.

This seems very doable.

[Jason Topp]

I am sensing a lot of support for this idea!

[Joe Hancock]

I am sensing a lot of support for this idea!

Don’t let it get in the way of exploratory thinking. It’s good to question convention, even if convention ends up being the appropriate solution. The only problem with questioning is when you present it to a bunch of people who have all the answers!

[Jason Topp]

I am sensing a lot of support for this idea!

Don’t let it get in the way of exploratory thinking. It’s good to question convention, even if convention ends up being the appropriate solution. The only problem with questioning is when you present it to a bunch of people who have all the answers!

This type of exercise does give me some respect for the routing process.  I feel like the routing on the front nine of my course could be improved.  Every time I have tried to sketch it out, however, I do not come up with a result that I am confident would be an improvement.