[Jeff Schley]

Curious if there are many courses still around that are built in a floodplain?  If so any you know of that routinely flood?

Also a separate question, if one is building or possibly buying a new course is there flood insurance available as per the FEMA's Flood Insurance Rate Map (FIRM)? The FIRM calculates your insurance rate for flood insurance for structures, but for golf courses I have no idea.  I know there are numerous ones that have flooded over the years, in many cases natural disaster type instances, but curious if some courses have flood insurance and if lenders use FIRM as a baseline benchmark?

[Duncan Cheslett]

To the south of Manchester flows the River Mersey, and along its banks lie 5 golf courses. They've been there for 100 years.


When the river levels get dangerously high, the sluice gates are opened, and the golf courses flood.


Needless to say, these are not good places for winter golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


There are still golf courses being built (partially) in flood plains.  It's very tempting to developers to do golf on their "unbuildable" land even if the course has issues down the road - at which point they hope it's the members' problem.


Our CommonGround course is built partially in a flood control basin, and in the big flood in Denver 4 years ago, the basin filled up to the point that some holes were under ten feet of water, for a week or more.  That killed the grass, but there was no scouring damage like you might get alongside a river, so they just had to reseed the affected holes in the spring.


Our project in Chinacwas actually on an island in a flood-prone river ... so we had to design it knowing that someday the river would go over the top of it.  In such cases you can move dirt within the flood plain, within limits (as long as computer models show you are not restricting the flow in a flood).  It was a very complex engineering problem though it turned out to be all for naught!

[Jon Wiggett]

Our CommonGround course is built partially in a flood control basin, and in the big flood in Denver 4 years ago, the basin filled up to the point that some holes were under ten feet of water, for a week or more.  That killed the grass, but there was no scouring damage like you might get alongside a river, so they just had to reseed the affected holes in the spring.

Interesting that the grass died after just a week. I worked at Interlaken GC, Switzerland that was situated on the shoreline of Thunersee. It used to get flooded quite often with the course covered by 5' to 6' of water once for just over 7 weeks. The sward came through just fine which amazed me.


Jon

[ward peyronnin]

I was fixin to start a thread exploring a related topic. Recalling playing Wolf Run and the Golf Club of Tennessee and others I realized the feature of these courses that oftentimes put me off were the riverside holes. Reddish's holes are acceptable but not among the better part of the course.

What is it about these spots that detract from course enjoyment? Are there courses that do not suffer from defaulting to river corridors? I know that I will in the future select courses without over courses that incorporate such land unless you guys convince me otherwise

[Tim Leahy]

In San Diego Carlton Oaks and Mission Valley courses are built on flood plains and have raised tees and greens to minimize damage.

[Pete Lavallee]

Carlton Oaks has the San Diego river running on it southern boundary with a small earthen dike; it does flood quite frequently. At Riverwalk, the old Stardust at Hotel Circle, the SD river runs right down the middle of two 9’s; the Friars 9 is elevated above the north side of the Trolley tracks. The last time it flooded there a few years ago the water went from I8 to the Trolley tracks, 18 holes completely underwater. They want to build 4,000 houses there soon?

[Michael Whitaker]

As Tom says, many developers used flood plain property to build a course with the adjoining higher property reserved for housing. Greenville Country Club's Chanticleer Course (a former Golf Digest Top 100) is built partially in the "100 Year Floodplain" for this very reason.

Another SC course in the floodplain is Musgrove Mill. I have some photos of the flooding this course sustains most every year. I'll post them when I get a chance to dig them up.

[Carl Rogers]

Rae's Creek & ANGC.... didn't the 11th & 12th greens get raised at some time in the past?

[Tom_Doak]

There are actually tons of well-known courses in flood plains.


In Chicago, for example, several holes at Butler National are in the flood plain.  There was one Western Open where they had to use a hybrid of Butler and the public course next door to get the tournament finished.  Medinah #1  has several holes in the flood plain, too; we had to do a lot of drainage detention work when we rebuilt the course a few years ago.  Olympia Fields has some holes on the south course in the flood plain, and so does Butterfield I believe.


The eleventh green at Merion is in the flood plain, too ... they had to have a contingency plan to use a hole from the West course for the U.S. Open if it went completely underwater the week of the event.


The only reason they built a new course for the Olympics in Rio was because too many of the holes at Itanhanga Club were in the flood plain, and they were afraid a bad rainstorm would cancel the Olympic golf event if they used the course.

[V_Halyard]

Jeff, 14 of our 18 holes are in a flood plain which was one of our driving motivators for a restoration. Much of our most recent design work was configured to literally move water off of the course after a flood. We don't have any major structures in the flood zone as the clubhouse and most buildings sit on higher ground. The design and bunkering however was purpose built to evacuate water.

[Garland Bayley]

Neskowin Beach Golf Course closed 11/01 to 5/01 as it is essentially underwater almost half the year.
Neskowin, OR

[Michael Whitaker]

Musgrove Mill when it’s dry:


Musgrove Mill after the deluge:

[Wayne_Kozun]

Many of the older courses in Toronto are built in river ravines/valleys that flood when there are bad rainstorms.  These courses can sustain flooding damage after heavy rains.  This is the case with my home course, Scarboro Golf & Country Club.  And it is true of many others including Donalda (which was badly damaged after a storm in 2005), Weston, Islington, St. George's, Mississauga, Credit Valley, etc.


Here is a picture of Donalda from August 2005. The club was closed for the rest of the golf season due to the damage and all of the bridges on the course being wiped out.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Many of the older courses in Toronto are built in river ravines/valleys that flood when there are bad rainstorms.  These courses can sustain flooding damage after heavy rains.  This is the case with my home course, Scarboro Golf & Country Club.  And it is true of many others including Donalda (which was badly damaged after a storm in 2005), Weston, Islington, St. George's, Mississauga, Credit Valley, etc.


Here is a picture of Donalda from August 2005. The club was closed for the rest of the golf season due to the damage and all of the bridges on the course being wiped out.

We were members at Donalda in the early 70's.
Vivid memories of my parents curling in the winter.


Today, our course near Chicago has issues with flooding as the west branch of the north fork of the Chicago River (or is it the west fork of the north branch - Adrian...?...;-) runs through the back nine. Flooding there in early 1900's impacted US Amateur.


We've done everything we can: water wikking installed, cisterns and pumps, etc...all we can do is get the water off the course ASAP when river recedes to minimize turf damage and get course back open.


10 years ago, after a flooding, we would be closed for 2-3 days.Today, it's less than 24 hours usually.

[Andrew Hardy]

I seem to remember Kirtland Country Club in Ohio being in a flood plain

[BHoover]

I seem to remember Kirtland Country Club in Ohio being in a flood plain

The 11th green and 12th-13th holes are next to the Chagrin River. It does runneth over from time-to-time.

[Adam T]

Jeff,

The Farmington River of central Connecticut impacts a few courses along its banks...probably every 5-10 years.

I first noticed the phenomenon when I was a high school student employed at Tower Ridge Country Club in Avon. We were out of work for an entire week one fall when the Farmington had entirely flooded holes 2, 3, 12, and 13, on the low side of the property. Those floods also can impact Blue Fox Run, and perhaps more well known on GCA, the Country Club of Farmington. I would imagine it may impact nearby Tunxis Country Club, but I have not seen flooding there in person.

-Adam

[Ken Moum]

In Mesa, AZ, the East Maricopa Floodway has two golf courses in it.


The course in Leisure World, and Superstition Springs Golf Course are both part of the actual flood control channel that apparently was built in 1989.


They both are arranged so that the lowest part of the channel is between fairways, but it's not a separate channel.  There are ponds and rough in the lowest portions, but I have seen considerable flooding of the course at times.


K

[Jeff_Brauer]

It would probably be easier to count courses not in a flood plain, or at least partially in a flood plain.


I recall recommending against a client acquiring or building a course in a certain floodplain.  I showed them a USGS map, and the blue line stream and accompanying watershed were tens of miles, thousands of acres in size.  In essence, there are minor floodplains and major ones.  Flood damage from minor ones is usually controllable, but can be quite severe in large ones.

[Bill Vogeney]

Valhalla....

[Tom_Doak]

I recall recommending against a client acquiring or building a course in a certain floodplain.  I showed them a USGS map, and the blue line stream and accompanying watershed were tens of miles, thousands of acres in size.  In essence, there are minor floodplains and major ones.  Flood damage from minor ones is usually controllable, but can be quite severe in large ones.

I lost out on a project a while back, where the goal was to build a course that would serve as the venue for a future major tournament, even though almost the entire area given to the course was in a major flood plain.  [All the non flood plain land was too expensive for golf, and was going to be carved up by developers.]  It was like a giant elephant in the room that nobody wanted to talk about.  The project has yet to be announced, and I wonder if they are reconsidering the whole thing. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Neskowin Beach Golf Course closed 11/01 to 5/01 as it is essentially underwater almost half the year.
Neskowin, OR

It was earlier called Neskowin Marsh, and I think it is more wetlands than floodplain.
Two others in Oregon that I can recall. Furst is Trysting Tree in Corvallis (Ted Robinson). A university course it is built on the banks of the Willamette River, which frequently floods. The solution was elevated greens and tees. It would still flood, but with limited damage other than lost green fees. Second is Tualatin CC (Egan). The original design had a small area (2-3) acres that occasionally flooded, but affected 7,8,9.  A land purchase and redesign by Cupp/Fought built on the hundred year flood plain.
A few years after the redesign it significantly flooded two years in a row, higher than basketball backboards. I dropped my membership, which was a mistake for access privileges.
And the two Heron Lakes courses, which held a US PubLinx, were built on the site of the 1948 (Memorial Day) Vanport Flood,
but that was caused by a broken dike.
In back to back years it floo

[Adam Warren]

The course in the town I grew up in, Wasioto Winds in Pineville, Ky.(Hurdzan 2001) is actually currently under several feet of water.  Southeastern Kentucky along the Cumberland River flooded heavily this weekend. 

Wasioto is built on a once failed man made lake.  They built up the land some to attempt to get it less in the flood plain, but the course has probably flooded 1-2 times a year every year it has been open.  The course dams up to the Cumberland, as well as having several lakes on the course that overflow as well.  The flood of the course is not a major issue since they are now used to it unless it recedes too quickly or slowly.

QUESTION: The issue now is, the course was bent grass fairways up until  either last year or the year before when they seeded in Bermuda due to cost and time of maintaining Bent (and reduction of state funds for maintenance).  At this time of year, is there any major issues with flooding on the Bermuda?  I know a few years ago when KY had a terrible winter the constant freezes killed many courses Bermuda entirely.  Anything to worry about here?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Philly Cricket and Whitemarsh both come to mind in Philly. The area made the evening news as we got about 2-3 inches of rain.

Whitemarsh has done a fantastic job at moving the water around the green complexes. The floods affect Whitemarsh much more than Cricket but from what I saw yesterday the road to Philly cricket was closed.

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