[Tommy Williamsen]

On another thread Tom D mentioned that Waialae gets some 50,000 rounds of golf a year. That's 34 foursomes a day! How can a super keep a course with that much play in decent shape? Is is easier to keep the course up with Bermuda rather than Bent?

[Tom_Doak]

Lights on the mowers help!  (Seriously)


When golf was booming in northern Michigan, a superintendent friend of mine was struggling to find space to do his job.  He had to have a late afternoon shift doing some of the work, but he still couldn't convince management to give up a couple days' worth of revenue to aerify.  After looking at the. Umbers, he said it made more sense to just run the course into the ground for ten years, then close it for a half season and fix it all 

[Steve Lang]

TD or run it into the ground and turn it into a hay field and then a hops farm?

[Tom_Doak]

No not that one.  But all of the courses up here have time for maintenance nowadays.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

[Lou_Duran]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Spoken like a life-member of the brotherhood!   May I suggest several bigger problems which "destroy" productivity: the smart phone, socializing, hawking balls (at my home club, maintenance workers carry ball retrievers), late starts/absenteeism/turn-over, and superiors who are not seen on the course much.

Hard for me to think of a dues-paying member who goes through the process of getting an early tee time as being "entitled".   I suspect that many private clubs have systems developed over time enabling faster groups to play earlier, sometimes governed by the players themselves with or without tee sheets.  Without such arrangements, membership would likely decline and the employee roll along with it.

Ditto, put out the average 4 ball playing in 4-4.5 hours first, and yes, you might have a happier maintenance crew for a while, but a very disgruntled membership when the mid-morning and later rounds approach 5 and 6 hours.  Think that golfers don't have superior options for their time?  We have any number of players who don't go out on the weekend because of slow play (4-4.5 hours).  Run the club for the benefit of the staff and neither the club or the staff will remain viable for long.

There are a number of things golf operators can do to improve operating efficiencies.  Unfortunately, paying higher wages for retaining the best employees, training, and supervising the work are difficult things.  IMO, the superintendent is by far the most important position at a club, followed closely by the general manager.  I wonder just how many clubs are blessed with top shelf folks in both. 

[Don Mahaffey]

Lou,
I was on the course every moring on those busy in season winter days in AZ and I can tell you that the non social, grumpy singles that never want to play with anyone and always want to go 15 mins before their tee time are a problem.  Seems like there are always three or four guys who want to play alone, hit extra balls and don't think twice about firing balls at the green while its being mowed.  Its a real problem when trying to set up for a busy day.  Your generalizations about maintenance workers is way off.

You do need to have a pro shop that understands the challenges. The problem is that same guy who wants to go early, alone, is hanging out at the counter bugging the staff while waiting.

Lights on mowers is a necessity. Staggering shifts so you're mowing ahead of golfers in the early morning and behind them late in the day. A busy course can be maintained but things like top dressing and spraying require windows and you need coordination with the front of the house.

[Craig Moore]

Marquette, Michigan 36 holes with a 7 month member season (on a good year) and a 4 month guest play season.  We do 40,000 plus rounds a season.... It’s a factory so we get creative.  A 1/2 day on a Monday every 3 weeks on each course is all we use for Maintenance closure time.  (We need the day for our sand to dry and drag into the canopy properly).   
LED light technology has been a game changer.  Vertical mowing, large area spraying, aerification, regular maintenance can now all be started in the middle of the night and finished before golfers catch up. 
It’s all about providing the best experience for them, eliminating frustration for staff/players and increasing efficiency (saving $ & keeping the cost of the game down). 
LED lights are cheap on Amazon.
I don’t get as much sleep but I’m less frustrated, have a better product and evenings are open to tee it with my kids (walking of course). 
One caution: Be smart about it... leave difficult to manage areas for the day light hours.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Marquette, Michigan 36 holes with a 7 month member season (on a good year) and a 4 month guest play season.  We do 40,000 plus rounds a season.... It’s a factory so we get creative.  A 1/2 day on a Monday every 3 weeks on each course is all we use for Maintenance closure time.  (We need the day for our sand to dry and drag into the canopy properly).   
LED light technology has been a game changer.  Vertical mowing, large area spraying, aerification, regular maintenance can now all be started in the middle of the night and finished before golfers catch up. 
It’s all about providing the best experience for them, eliminating frustration for staff/players and increasing efficiency (saving $ & keeping the cost of the game down). 
LED lights are cheap on Amazon.
I don’t get as much sleep but I’m less frustrated, have a better product and evenings are open to tee it with my kids (walking of course). 
One caution: Be smart about it... leave difficult to manage areas for the day light hours.

Craig, I would think that bunker maintenance is a problem. Do you only use the sand pro? Do your traps need any handraking? Do you edge?

[Jeff Schley]

Superintendents are certainly the most underappreciated employees at a golf course. First one there and often times there every single day, perhaps going home for a couple hours then back later to get ready for the next day.

Kudos to them and I am quite surprised to learn the compensation is below par IMO.  They not only have knowledge, but great work ethic.  I wished they had a bigger voice at some courses for they tend to get run over by the GM/Membership/whoever else thinks they know best.

[Tommy Williamsen]

A good superintendent can set the tone for the club, certainly for the course. We have a new super at Ballyhack. The old super was excellent and we all were sad to see him go. The new guy, however, is a step above excellent. I've never seen the course look any better. Members can't wait to bring guests to see the course.


As far as pay goes, the superb have been the highest paid employees, except maybe the GM. They do deserve it.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,
I was on the course every moring on those busy in season winter days in AZ and I can tell you that the non social, grumpy singles that never want to play with anyone and always want to go 15 mins before their tee time are a problem.  Seems like there are always three or four guys who want to play alone, hit extra balls and don't think twice about firing balls at the green while its being mowed.  Its a real problem when trying to set up for a busy day.  Your generalizations about maintenance workers is way off.

I know, Don, I've only been playing golf for 50 years, been a member at several clubs, and played somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 courses.  All I can do is generalize, wrongly.    What does the customer know, right?  And you wonder why the game is in danger!

My suggestion to deal with offending members, guests, and daily-fee players: bring the problem (s) to their attention and demand proper behavior.  If they persist, walk them off the course, permanently.

My home club is pretty ordinary.  The generalizations you make do not describe our early players.  We do have two old members (mid-70s) who jump ahead of everyone during the week and play in 2.5 hours while sanding divots that our 4-4.5 hour players don't bother with.   They would never think of hitting into anyone, but our former asst. superintendent would occasionally turn the sprinklers on them.  We (including them) thought it was pretty funny.  Like these gentlemen, most of us play for exercise, fresh air, and some social interaction.

[Tim Martin]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Spoken like a life-member of the brotherhood!   May I suggest several bigger problems which "destroy" productivity: the smart phone, socializing, hawking balls (at my home club, maintenance workers carry ball retrievers), late starts/absenteeism/turn-over, and superiors who are not seen on the course much.

Hard for me to think of a dues-paying member who goes through the process of getting an early tee time as being "entitled".   I suspect that many private clubs have systems developed over time enabling faster groups to play earlier, sometimes governed by the players themselves with or without tee sheets.  Without such arrangements, membership would likely decline and the employee roll along with it.

Ditto, put out the average 4 ball playing in 4-4.5 hours first, and yes, you might have a happier maintenance crew for a while, but a very disgruntled membership when the mid-morning and later rounds approach 5 and 6 hours.  Think that golfers don't have superior options for their time?  We have any number of players who don't go out on the weekend because of slow play (4-4.5 hours).  Run the club for the benefit of the staff and neither the club or the staff will remain viable for long.

There are a number of things golf operators can do to improve operating efficiencies.  Unfortunately, paying higher wages for retaining the best employees, training, and supervising the work are difficult things.  IMO, the superintendent is by far the most important position at a club, followed closely by the general manager.  I wonder just how many clubs are blessed with top shelf folks in both.

Lou-How do you make the leap that a 4 to 4.5 hour fourball going first turns mid-morning and later rounds into 5 and 6 hours? Seems to me that some of the blame has to go to entitled and clueless members instead of the entire issue being blamed on the employees. Just because I write a check and get a bag tag doesn't give me the option to do as I please. These are the same guys that scream the loudest that the course is not in good condition. What am I missing?

[Peter Pallotta]

From a (mostly) daily fee golfer: use the late afternoons, with no half-measues, ie let the crew do their work without interruptions -- golfers waiting on them to finish mowing a green instead of the crew stopping and starting with each approaching group. But also, let the golfers *know* that this is the process/policy, and that any slight/potential inconvenience has been reflected in the (reduced/twilight rate) green fee.
 

[Craig Sweet]

Lights on equipment? Yeah, fine for early morning starts. But here, in Montana, it's light enough in mid summer to play until 10pm. When do you irrigate?   We hustle to get out ahead of the first group and stay ahead. We have an order to what gets mowed, but generally we mow the course in order.  What really sucks is when you are comfortably ahead and you reach the back nine only to find golfers that were sent off #10 by the pro shop, or simply took it upon themselves to start on the back.  Now the grounds crew is waiting for golfers, and those golfers behind are gaining ground on you.

[Lou_Duran]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Spoken like a life-member of the brotherhood!   May I suggest several bigger problems which "destroy" productivity: the smart phone, socializing, hawking balls (at my home club, maintenance workers carry ball retrievers), late starts/absenteeism/turn-over, and superiors who are not seen on the course much.

Hard for me to think of a dues-paying member who goes through the process of getting an early tee time as being "entitled".   I suspect that many private clubs have systems developed over time enabling faster groups to play earlier, sometimes governed by the players themselves with or without tee sheets.  Without such arrangements, membership would likely decline and the employee roll along with it.

Ditto, put out the average 4 ball playing in 4-4.5 hours first, and yes, you might have a happier maintenance crew for a while, but a very disgruntled membership when the mid-morning and later rounds approach 5 and 6 hours.  Think that golfers don't have superior options for their time?  We have any number of players who don't go out on the weekend because of slow play (4-4.5 hours).  Run the club for the benefit of the staff and neither the club or the staff will remain viable for long.

There are a number of things golf operators can do to improve operating efficiencies.  Unfortunately, paying higher wages for retaining the best employees, training, and supervising the work are difficult things.  IMO, the superintendent is by far the most important position at a club, followed closely by the general manager.  I wonder just how many clubs are blessed with top shelf folks in both.

Lou-How do you make the leap that a 4 to 4.5 hour fourball going first turns mid-morning and later rounds into 5 and 6 hours? Seems to me that some of the blame has to go to entitled and clueless members instead of the entire issue being blamed on the employees. Just because I write a check and get a bag tag doesn't give me the option to do as I please. These are the same guys that scream the loudest that the course is not in good condition. What am I missing?

Tim- I can only tell you what I've observed as a player and officiating tournaments.  If the earliest tee times are taking 4.5 hours, unless you are building in several starter times, the later players will take much longer.  On a typical TGA (TX) or USGA event where players are given 4:25-:35+ to complete their rounds in threesomes, if the lead groups aren't beating their times comfortably (10-15 minutes), we will have increasing pace of play problems for the rest of the day.

No doubt that most of the problem rests with the players.  We have had numerous discussions here on correcting slow play, yet it remains a serious obstacle to the future of our game.  But this is not the subject of this thread- how to keep a high volume course in good condition- and the reply I was specifically addressing-putting out foursomes in the first groups to slow down the pace of play behind maintenance so they can be more productive.

It seems to me that if we have a demand problem in golf, i.e. not enough golfers for the supply of courses at prevailing rates, the best solution might lie in areas that do not restrict folks from playing the game.   Members and daily-fee golfers are only "entitled" to what they bargained for.  In most markets, if a club puts the convenience of its employees above the expectations of its customers, I doubt that it will remain in business over the long run.

I can tell you that if my club restricted play by less than foursomes in a meaningful way, it would lose many members (10%+).  As suggested on this thread, there are ways to maintain the course adequately without subjecting golfers who want to play early (say, 8:00) to 4 hour rounds.   Yes, it is not fun to be on the job two hours before sunlight, but unless there are noise restrictions or dangerous situations, there are folks willing and able to do the work.  No one puts a gun to anyone's head on the type of work they choose OR where people spend their money.  Well, at least not yet here in the private economy.       
     

[Kalen Braley]

Years ago, when Couer D' Alene resort first opened, they did all thier maintenance at night....even thou they didn't have to.

They wanted to the guests to have a "pure" uninterrupted experience, regardless of when you teed off.  Not the same anymore, but its still something you should do if you're ever in the area....its a beautiful location and some of the holes are pretty good..

[Craig Moore]

Marquette, Michigan 36 holes with a 7 month member season (on a good year) and a 4 month guest play season.  We do 40,000 plus rounds a season.... It’s a factory so we get creative.  A 1/2 day on a Monday every 3 weeks on each course is all we use for Maintenance closure time.  (We need the day for our sand to dry and drag into the canopy properly).   
LED light technology has been a game changer.  Vertical mowing, large area spraying, aerification, regular maintenance can now all be started in the middle of the night and finished before golfers catch up. 
It’s all about providing the best experience for them, eliminating frustration for staff/players and increasing efficiency (saving $ & keeping the cost of the game down). 
LED lights are cheap on Amazon.
I don’t get as much sleep but I’m less frustrated, have a better product and evenings are open to tee it with my kids (walking of course). 
One caution: Be smart about it... leave difficult to manage areas for the day light hours.

Craig, I would think that bunker maintenance is a problem. Do you only use the sand pro? Do your traps need any handraking? Do you edge?

Tommy-
Bunker maintenance is not a problem. 
We use a sand-pro (with lights) as little as possible (Once maybe twice a week in peak season) we just track rake footprints and re-position rakes every morning in our hazards.  Daily sand-pro use takes the life right out of bunkers and is a waste of my clubs money. 
The Greywalls course only has 11 bunkers on the front 9 because the natural hazards already in place (rock and topography) didn't warrant a need for more.  Greywalls back 9 has many more bunkers but we are so far ahead at that point we seldom get caught during morning prep.  The bunker edges are natural/free flow with the landscape so no regular edging takes place.  We do groom the fescue around many bunkers every month or so but breaking it into several mornings of work is not an issue and staff/player interaction is minimal. 
The Heritage course does have more bunkers and they do have a defined shape to them.  We typically edge them once a year and trim them with a weedeater every week or two.  We are selective about our edge work timing; usually an afternoon job with hard hats.  We just close one bunker at a time while working on it.  It is never an issue if you complete the most popular bunkers when play is light (lousy weather days). 

[Bradley Anderson]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Amen brother. The single greatest productivity killer in maintenance is the singles and doubles that tee off first thing every morning. The golf culture has changed to where now you have a sizable cohort that plays alone or in pairs. Not sure what the solution is.

[Kalen Braley]

I figure most ground crews guys gotta be early birds and all to work those jobs, why not put lights on the equipment and get a 1 hour start before sun-up?


P.S. The one course where I used to do this, (tee off at 5 AM), it'd only be a trickle of guys before the crowds started teeing off at 7 AM, so the crews still had plenty of time to stay ahead of the masses...

[Anthony_Nysse]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Spoken like a life-member of the brotherhood!   May I suggest several bigger problems which "destroy" productivity: the smart phone, socializing, hawking balls (at my home club, maintenance workers carry ball retrievers), late starts/absenteeism/turn-over, and superiors who are not seen on the course much.

Hard for me to think of a dues-paying member who goes through the process of getting an early tee time as being "entitled".   I suspect that many private clubs have systems developed over time enabling faster groups to play earlier, sometimes governed by the players themselves with or without tee sheets.  Without such arrangements, membership would likely decline and the employee roll along with it.

Ditto, put out the average 4 ball playing in 4-4.5 hours first, and yes, you might have a happier maintenance crew for a while, but a very disgruntled membership when the mid-morning and later rounds approach 5 and 6 hours.  Think that golfers don't have superior options for their time?  We have any number of players who don't go out on the weekend because of slow play (4-4.5 hours).  Run the club for the benefit of the staff and neither the club or the staff will remain viable for long.

There are a number of things golf operators can do to improve operating efficiencies.  Unfortunately, paying higher wages for retaining the best employees, training, and supervising the work are difficult things.  IMO, the superintendent is by far the most important position at a club, followed closely by the general manager.  I wonder just how many clubs are blessed with top shelf folks in both.

Lou-How do you make the leap that a 4 to 4.5 hour fourball going first turns mid-morning and later rounds into 5 and 6 hours? Seems to me that some of the blame has to go to entitled and clueless members instead of the entire issue being blamed on the employees. Just because I write a check and get a bag tag doesn't give me the option to do as I please. These are the same guys that scream the loudest that the course is not in good condition. What am I missing?

Tim- I can only tell you what I've observed as a player and officiating tournaments.  If the earliest tee times are taking 4.5 hours, unless you are building in several starter times, the later players will take much longer.  On a typical TGA (TX) or USGA event where players are given 4:25-:35+ to complete their rounds in threesomes, if the lead groups aren't beating their times comfortably (10-15 minutes), we will have increasing pace of play problems for the rest of the day.

No doubt that most of the problem rests with the players.  We have had numerous discussions here on correcting slow play, yet it remains a serious obstacle to the future of our game.  But this is not the subject of this thread- how to keep a high volume course in good condition- and the reply I was specifically addressing-putting out foursomes in the first groups to slow down the pace of play behind maintenance so they can be more productive.

It seems to me that if we have a demand problem in golf, i.e. not enough golfers for the supply of courses at prevailing rates, the best solution might lie in areas that do not restrict folks from playing the game.   Members and daily-fee golfers are only "entitled" to what they bargained for.  In most markets, if a club puts the convenience of its employees above the expectations of its customers, I doubt that it will remain in business over the long run.

I can tell you that if my club restricted play by less than foursomes in a meaningful way, it would lose many members (10%+).  As suggested on this thread, there are ways to maintain the course adequately without subjecting golfers who want to play early (say, 8:00) to 4 hour rounds.   Yes, it is not fun to be on the job two hours before sunlight, but unless there are noise restrictions or dangerous situations, there are folks willing and able to do the work.  No one puts a gun to anyone's head on the type of work they choose OR where people spend their money.  Well, at least not yet here in the private economy.       
   

We have a 2 some that plays nearly every morning in 1.45-2 hours. They are polite and respectful and understand maintenance. There are a few behind them that play is 2.5. It's hard to get members/golfers to understand the difference and benefit to maintenance with a 4 some goes off compared to a single or 2 some.

[Tim Martin]

The biggest single thing you can do to help out the turf crew is send a FOURSOME off first.  Not a single, not a twosome, not a threesome, but a foursome.  I would guess 90% off a maintenance crew's productivity is ahead of the first group.  If that's a single or a twosome that hustles but doesn't putt out it makes life quite difficult.  Problem is it seems like so many golfers think they are entitled to a 7AM single slot so they can motor around and be done by 9:30, but that completely destroys the crew's ability to get things done.

Spoken like a life-member of the brotherhood!   May I suggest several bigger problems which "destroy" productivity: the smart phone, socializing, hawking balls (at my home club, maintenance workers carry ball retrievers), late starts/absenteeism/turn-over, and superiors who are not seen on the course much.

Hard for me to think of a dues-paying member who goes through the process of getting an early tee time as being "entitled".   I suspect that many private clubs have systems developed over time enabling faster groups to play earlier, sometimes governed by the players themselves with or without tee sheets.  Without such arrangements, membership would likely decline and the employee roll along with it.

Ditto, put out the average 4 ball playing in 4-4.5 hours first, and yes, you might have a happier maintenance crew for a while, but a very disgruntled membership when the mid-morning and later rounds approach 5 and 6 hours.  Think that golfers don't have superior options for their time?  We have any number of players who don't go out on the weekend because of slow play (4-4.5 hours).  Run the club for the benefit of the staff and neither the club or the staff will remain viable for long.

There are a number of things golf operators can do to improve operating efficiencies.  Unfortunately, paying higher wages for retaining the best employees, training, and supervising the work are difficult things.  IMO, the superintendent is by far the most important position at a club, followed closely by the general manager.  I wonder just how many clubs are blessed with top shelf folks in both.

Lou-How do you make the leap that a 4 to 4.5 hour fourball going first turns mid-morning and later rounds into 5 and 6 hours? Seems to me that some of the blame has to go to entitled and clueless members instead of the entire issue being blamed on the employees. Just because I write a check and get a bag tag doesn't give me the option to do as I please. These are the same guys that scream the loudest that the course is not in good condition. What am I missing?

Tim- I can only tell you what I've observed as a player and officiating tournaments.  If the earliest tee times are taking 4.5 hours, unless you are building in several starter times, the later players will take much longer.  On a typical TGA (TX) or USGA event where players are given 4:25-:35+ to complete their rounds in threesomes, if the lead groups aren't beating their times comfortably (10-15 minutes), we will have increasing pace of play problems for the rest of the day.

No doubt that most of the problem rests with the players.  We have had numerous discussions here on correcting slow play, yet it remains a serious obstacle to the future of our game.  But this is not the subject of this thread- how to keep a high volume course in good condition- and the reply I was specifically addressing-putting out foursomes in the first groups to slow down the pace of play behind maintenance so they can be more productive.

It seems to me that if we have a demand problem in golf, i.e. not enough golfers for the supply of courses at prevailing rates, the best solution might lie in areas that do not restrict folks from playing the game.   Members and daily-fee golfers are only "entitled" to what they bargained for.  In most markets, if a club puts the convenience of its employees above the expectations of its customers, I doubt that it will remain in business over the long run.

I can tell you that if my club restricted play by less than foursomes in a meaningful way, it would lose many members (10%+).  As suggested on this thread, there are ways to maintain the course adequately without subjecting golfers who want to play early (say, 8:00) to 4 hour rounds.   Yes, it is not fun to be on the job two hours before sunlight, but unless there are noise restrictions or dangerous situations, there are folks willing and able to do the work.  No one puts a gun to anyone's head on the type of work they choose OR where people spend their money.  Well, at least not yet here in the private economy.       
   

Lou-What does a USGA or TGA event have to do with early morning member play? Any medal play event obviously takes longer as you have to hole out. There has to be at the very least an understanding by the members that a certain level of scheduled maintenance is required for optimum conditions without blaming the staff at every turn for a single or twosome being incredibly inconvenienced while they wait for a fresh cup to be cut or tee markers moved as the sun is rising. I would rather be a member somewhere where there is deference for what is required to put out the best product even if it requires a small sacrifice to the members. You must have been a tough boss.

[Lou_Duran]

We have a 2 some that plays nearly every morning in 1.45-2 hours. They are polite and respectful and understand maintenance. There are a few behind them that play is 2.5. It's hard to get members/golfers to understand the difference and benefit to maintenance with a 4 some goes off compared to a single or 2 some.

Tony,

I think most members "understand the difference and benefit to maintenance ..........".   Perhaps you are not taking into consideration why some people join a private club and their willingness to pay a premium for the privilege.  Hint- it is not for the benefit of maintenance.

As a superintendent, I am sure it is more pleasant/easier/less expensive for you to have an extra hour or two each morning to prepare the course for play and perform normal maintenance.  Unfortunately, demand not production drives most things.  Golf is a hospitality business.  It is much more costly to replace members who want to play early and fast than employees who are willing to work in more difficult, less productive conditions. 

I am happy with our 8 a.m. start; two or three of our guys prefer 7-7:30 (first time Sa. and Su. between Memorial and Labor Days is 7:30).  A dozen or more who play early during the week would not remain as members if our pace of play snuck up on four hours.  I know that all private clubs are different, but I bet ours is fairly representative.  Weekdays, after the initial wave gets out, the next couple hours are light; in summer, 1 to 5 is mostly dead.     

[Anthony_Nysse]

Lou,
  Please take into consideration that many courses that noise regulation, whether it be a community or county code. Starting early isn’t always an option.

[Lou_Duran]

Tim,

Evaluations by superiors, peers, and direct reports indicated that I was thought of as a fair "boss" who understood the mission, set reasonable standards, and expected everyone to pull their weight.  I wasn't privy to the raw data, but I suspect that the low end of the range came from those who had greater concern for their own agenda than that of the organization.  But thanks for trying to make it personal.

I don't know where you play, but in north Texas, golf is most always stroke play.  The TGA and USGA put strict time constraints on its players.  No such guidance is provided for daily play and a morning four hour 4ball round is normally considered average to fast, with the pace worsening as the day progresses.  You can choose to believe otherwise, and hopefully that is not your experience where you play.

As to optimum playing conditions, that is well beyond our expectations whether we start at 8 in a 4ball or 9 in lesser numbers.  Most things are not binary.  It does take some work to balance the wants and needs of golfers and staff, but it can be done.  Golf is a big world.  It makes sense to find a place where you fit best.

Tony,

I noted noise restrictions and dangerous conditions earlier.  Some courses have difficult topography and hazards that can be dangerous in the dark.  I also remember seeing Elephant Hills in Zimbabwe many years ago and thinking that I wouldn't want to be on the course in twilight.

Let me ask you, while it would make it easier on you, would you recommend to your board that the lead groups should be 4balls?  Your twosome playing in two hours early in the morning is probably adding close to $2k per month to revenues.  Is that not significant enough to tolerate some inconvenience?

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