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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #175 on: January 31, 2018, 03:56:00 PM »
Carl and Brian, what the heck are you doing answering the actual question posed by the thread originator? :)


-----


Kalen, thanks for the agreement, that's again my point. Are you hitting the ball substantially different than you did when you were shooting 80-85? By the silly charts, you should be X yards shorter on every club (and Y on the driver!). No, you're just not quite as consistent, and not quite as efficient.


I really think most people forget how they played when they shoot 95. In their own minds, once you're breaking 80 on a regular basis, you have to be hitting grounders to shoot 95... even though they may occasionally go out and play poorly and post an adjusted 92!f


George


Nope, I haven't forgotten how I played as beginner or as a young adult. Sure, shots are lost around greens for me because I don't practice. But what I really notice is how poorly I hit the ball now compared to when I was a 2. I am often in shit positions these days which puts serious stress on the short game. My short iron play and long wood play is shockingly bad. I reckon if I hit the ball as well as when I was 18 my scores would be close to that period. A shot a hole lost to a 5 capper due to poor shots is a huge problem with  a lesser short game.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #176 on: January 31, 2018, 03:56:59 PM »
... 

After all that II, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time and missing miles left or right, hit less club and get into less trouble because pin high miles off the green is often a terrible spot.

...

As I have stated, I play with a single digit who is always short. He has recommended playing less club. I have tried playing to his recommendations. Whereas he is short in the center, I am short wide left, and right. My scores are higher, because I am always farther away than when I play my game.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #177 on: January 31, 2018, 04:17:33 PM »
Brian,

Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.

To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper,  and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #178 on: January 31, 2018, 04:22:50 PM »
I apologize for taking this further off topic, but I'm just going to be the jerk here, because some of what is being said in this thread is laughable.  The idea that an 18 handicapper can predictably hit their irons within a +/- 5 yard range (or even +/- 10 yards) is silly.  To then take that a step further and say an 18 handicap player can not only hit their full iron shots within a tight range, BUT ALSO adjust their swing to reliably hit 50% - 90% shots is ridiculous!

An 18 handicap means the player's ten best scores (out of the last 20) are somewhere in the low 90s, perhaps with a high 80s score on occasion.  The ten rounds not counted toward their handicap are in the mid 90s or higher.  So, 18 handicappers don't shoot an average score of 90-92, they shoot somewhere closer to 95 on average. 

Of course high handicappers have terrible short games.  They are generally happy to have a chip or sand shot simply reach the putting surface, and routinely 3 putt.  They could probably lower their handicap most by practicing their short game.  However, this does not imply that their game from 75 to 200+ yards is no problem.  18 handicappers pretty much suck at everything. 

Let's say we take ten 18 handicap players to a driving range and (after as much warm up as they prefer) ask them to state their average/target distance with a 7 iron.  Given ten swings, how many of the ten players could hit 7 out of 10 shots within +/- 5 yards of their chosen distance?  I would say 1 or 2, maximum.  Many on this thread seem to contend it would be 8 to 10 of them.

Bringing it back around to the topic of this thread, the reason high handicap players can use fewer clubs (say 6 to 8) and still shoot approximately the same as with 14 clubs is because they aren't good enough for the precision offered by additional clubs to matter.  Frankly, the same pretty much goes for all but the very best players.  I include myself in this group of lesser players (90% or more of folks that play golf), which is why I think I could shoot about the same score with 8 clubs as with 14...but not because I have incredible control of half and 3/4 shots when I am in between clubs (I do love to try to hit these shots, and they are thrilling when executed well).  It's because I am not good enough for it to matter.


Ok, an interesting post.


I'll agree with you that most HHers can't give an accurate distance for their clubs down to +/- 5 yards. The thing is, I read the golf magazines and see the Shot Tracker stats and the pros (and by a streeeeeeeetched extension, the scratches and single digits and otherwise) can't do so either, not with the regularity presumed on here and in the various tables. The average misses are NOWHERE NEAR what most, on here and otherwise, presume.


I'll likewise agree backing off to reach a controlled standard is far beyond the realm of most HHers. I'd ever throw in a far or maybe even a far far to that. :)


I don't know that most HHers routinely 3 putt, but simply adding in 1 (ONE!) additional putt on each hole, going from up and down to up up and down, adds 18 strokes in a round. My chips certainly aren't to the "dead" range that Pelz desires (less than 6 feet, IIRC), they are probably more like 10-15 feet. Even most Tour Pros aren't routinely burying 10-15 footers. Again, hole after hole, it adds up.


But, it doesn't mean we're routinely 3 putting. It means we're occasionally 3 putting on a hole we're on in regulation, and usually 2 putting most holes for bogey, and occasionally 3 putting for double. Occasional is not routine, not in my book, anyway. I'm not defending, just trying to tighten up the language.


I'm happy to do your driving range test, any day you choose. I'd guess we might both be surprised with the results. Name the time and the place, and I'll be there if it's reasonable, and if not, you better be coming to me. Keep in mind, I'm basically a single mom, so I'm kinda tied down. :)


I don't play often, but when I do, I have a good idea of the length I hit my clubs. The direction, far less so, but the length, that's not the problem. Neither the distance nor really even the consistency, other than the fact that my misses are dramatically different, whereas the better golfers are less so.


And that's really my main point.


-----


Sean, with all due respect, and I mean that, as I greatly respect your thoughts and opinions, I don't think you really do remember what it was like to shoot a 95. It's really easy to turn a 4 into a 6 with one errant shot. Trust me, I do that all the time. And it's not because I don't know how far I hit my irons.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #179 on: January 31, 2018, 04:35:20 PM »
I hear you, George.
Take 1 parkland/tree-lined course.
Add 1 slightly over-the-top move on an otherwise powerful drive.
Count on 1 pitch out from the woods or lost ball drop.
Assume 1 honourable man who plays by the rules.
Mix together, and a 4 becomes a 6 or a 7 in a heartbeat.
Rinse and repeat because we took up the game late and don't get out to practice.
And you have someone who often scores like a 20 'capper but who often looks/hits it like an 8.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:42:39 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #180 on: January 31, 2018, 04:37:43 PM »
Brian,

Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.

To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper,  and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.

Both of your responses are merely anecdotal. 

Hop on the old google machine and read about golf statistics by handicap.  I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average.  I've also spent most of my 20 year career using statistics daily, so I have a pretty good handle on the numbers and how they work.

As for the 3 putts statement, my semantics were not nearly precise enough for you, and for that I most heartily apologize.  "Occasionally" is a more apt description than "routinely."  Most high handicappers are not good putters.  You can cite examples to the contrary, but I am speaking again to larger populations of players.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2018, 04:37:52 PM »
Brian,

Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.

To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper,  and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.


Garland.  Thanks my man!   ;)


I think this is where better players just don't understand how much variance there is with HH'ers.  There are so many ways to go sideways on the golf course....finding even general patterns can be an act in futility.


For me in general its off the tee I suck bad...and the closer I get to the hole the better...




George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2018, 04:44:50 PM »
I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average.


That's what you're hanging your hat on? Closer to 95 than 90, on average?


That's just sad, and misses the whole point of the discussion.


Which is kinda also my point in these threads....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #183 on: January 31, 2018, 04:46:05 PM »
I'm happy to do your driving range test, any day you choose. I'd guess we might both be surprised with the results. Name the time and the place, and I'll be there if it's reasonable, and if not, you better be coming to me. Keep in mind, I'm basically a single mom, so I'm kinda tied down. :)

I don't play often, but when I do, I have a good idea of the length I hit my clubs. The direction, far less so, but the length, that's not the problem. Neither the distance nor really even the consistency, other than the fact that my misses are dramatically different, whereas the better golfers are less so.
Perhaps you are among the 1-2 out of 10 that I cited (that would be able to accurately predict their 7 iron distances).  If so, that is terrific!  Feel free to video yourself accomplishing this feat and send it to me.  That way we don't need to be in the same place at the same time.  The real task will be finding 9 others of similar skill and showing me that another 1 or 2 out of those 9 can also accomplish it.  That's MY point.  MOST high handicappers can't do it.  Not NONE. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:50:56 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #184 on: January 31, 2018, 04:48:58 PM »
I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average.
That's what you're hanging your hat on? Closer to 95 than 90, on average?
That's just sad, and misses the whole point of the discussion.
Which is kinda also my point in these threads....
I'm not hanging my hat on any one thing.  Try going back and reading everything I wrote in this thread.  My view is well thought out and complete, despite your attempt to cut one sentence of mine and try to say that is EVERYTHING I am saying, when in fact it was a specific response to a specific statement that someone else made.  You seem to have very poor reading comprehension and attention to detail.  That's just sad!
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #185 on: January 31, 2018, 04:54:11 PM »
GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.


They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:55:45 PM by BHoover »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #186 on: January 31, 2018, 04:55:49 PM »
Sounds like a trip to TopGolf is in order.  ;D  I believe the targets have a radius of about 7-8 yards from each center pole....


So Brian you're saying I couldn't get it into one of those at least half the time at 150 yards?  That would certainly fall into the +/-10 range...


And that's with crap TopGolf balls, not better ones I would actually use on the course...





John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #187 on: January 31, 2018, 04:58:31 PM »
GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.


They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.


Please stop before i agree with you.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #188 on: January 31, 2018, 04:59:25 PM »
GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.


They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.


BHoover,


This is the same logic I'm sure countless owners used to convince themselves that a top pro like Jack or Arnie should build their course.  That a hack like Doak couldn't possibly understand or know.


There is a difference between knowing the path and having the ability to execute it on a regular basis....

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #189 on: January 31, 2018, 05:03:48 PM »
First of all, Brian, lighten up. A lot.


Did I read and dissect every post you made on this thread? No. I did read and dissect your recent one, which I called interesting, and addressed most of the points. Did you read or address any of that? No. So practice what you preach.


And lighten up. We are talking about hypotheticals. We are discussing the game we both love. We're not talking life or death here. Take a deep breath, have a beer and lighten up. I think your ideas are pretty solid, just not quite perfect. If that somehow offends you, just ignore this and have a nice day.


I nitpicked your one sentence because your response to Garland seemed to call for it. You dismissed his thoughts and used your 95 to 90 comparison to back it up. Pardon me for calling that out.


Relax.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #190 on: January 31, 2018, 05:05:13 PM »
GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.

They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.

Please stop before i agree with you.
My new golf goal for 2018...make a Hoover-Kavanaugh 36 hole match happen. 
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #191 on: January 31, 2018, 05:07:02 PM »
Kalen,


Have you played with Doak? He broke 70 at one of the finest courses in the world. No matter what anyone may think of him, he kicks some serious ass out on the course. His poor me act is nothing more than a marketing tool.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #192 on: January 31, 2018, 05:07:37 PM »
GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.


They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.


You could not be more wrong in this assessment. The few of us who admit to being HHers ask questions that the better golfers dismiss or never address. We don't ever seek to push our ideas on anyone else, unlike many others on here. We don't look down on any other golfers, unlike many on here. I've played many rounds with gcaers on here, and the difference between the various levels is much much less than they would have you believe.


Did you happen to notice JK asked me a specific question on here and I answered it? Did you happen to read his response? Neither did I...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #193 on: January 31, 2018, 05:12:44 PM »
Kalen,


Have you played with Doak? He broke 70 at one of the finest courses in the world. No matter what anyone may think of him, he kicks some serious ass out on the course. His poor me act is nothing more than a marketing tool.


I don't doubt that JK....but I'm sure its safe to say the number of owners who hired him for his golfing abilities is zero.


I mean c'mon, if you bumped into him without knowing him, you'd more think he was on his way to the local comic can or trekkie event, than build you a world class golf course.


No disrespect Tom...  ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #194 on: January 31, 2018, 05:14:45 PM »
What HHers do understand is how we play the game, and it's not like the rest of you seem to think, in spite of the fact that you were once HHers yourselves. You prefer to blot that out. The "better" golfers love to wax philosophic about how to grow the game (JK excepted, he relishes the extra tee times), but we understand that the game is not about your games, or our games, but everyone's games.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #195 on: January 31, 2018, 05:16:07 PM »
George,


I didn't answer your because I respect you as a person. I had typed out a reply and decided the world had enough negative energy without my opinion. In other words, you can't troll the guy whose picture is in the dictionary.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #196 on: January 31, 2018, 05:19:05 PM »
The reality is, the game really is more about our games.  Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »
The reality is, the game really is more about our games.  Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.


No, the game is about aging baby boomers like me who spend real money joining and playing courses all over the world. Nobody gives a shit about cheap ass hacks.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #198 on: January 31, 2018, 05:23:08 PM »
The reality is, the game really is more about our games.  Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.


No, the game is about aging baby boomers like me who spend real money joining and playing courses all over the world. Nobody gives a shit about cheap ass hacks.


John,


Thank you for that...you didn't disappoint!  ::)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #199 on: January 31, 2018, 05:26:03 PM »
So what do you think the median handicap is for the guys who spend $3,000 a year at a Mike Keiser property. Maybe 9-12 at worst. If it is any higher they are spending their winnings from a member/guest.