Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?

[Jim Franklin]

I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.

[BHoover]

I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.

You need to get with the times. By playing with 14 clubs, you are depriving yourself of full enjoyment of the game. Truly enjoying the game means playing with fewer than 10 clubs, with 5-6 being ideal.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic".  Even a 60* is a club for guys that can REALLY play; it doesn't make a chop into a player. 

And in any case, I don't think anybody (including David Elvins) is really advocating going beyond 14 clubs.  I just think that the contention that fewer clubs somehow creates more decision-making and strategy are in play is just 100% wrong.  It's just a different kind of decision-making and a different kind of strategy, a not at all superior version, and really sort of dull other than for the occasional practice round or funky tournament event, IMO. 

Fewer clubs, fewer choices.  Fewer choices, less strategy.  Playing away from any and all trouble simply because you are limited in the shots you can execute just isn't a very interesting way to play golf, at least on a regular basis.

You put bunkers on golf courses to, among other things, test a player's ability.  You put contour into greens for the same reason. You do LOTS of things in your designs to test the player's ability to overcome a challenging shot, and yet would like to see players play your courses with LESS ability to accept the challenges that you've designed?  I just don't get it.  At all...

A.G.:


We put in bunkers and contour greens to make the game more challenging.


Having fewer clubs would also make the game more challenging, in my opinion.  It would counter some of the erosion of challenge caused by longer-hitting players and clubs ... because as they hit it longer, the gaps between their clubs grow bigger, so having fewer clubs means they are less likely to be able to make a "normal" full swing and get to where they want.


I wasn't suggesting it for everybody, all the time.  I was suggesting it for better players and for the professionals in particular, for whom I think ten clubs is still too many.


Do you really think deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy" ?  To me, strategy is deciding where you want to go, and then it's a matter of execution to get there.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom,
I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic".  Even a 60* is a club for guys that can REALLY play; it doesn't make a chop into a player. 

And in any case, I don't think anybody (including David Elvins) is really advocating going beyond 14 clubs.  I just think that the contention that fewer clubs somehow creates more decision-making and strategy are in play is just 100% wrong.  It's just a different kind of decision-making and a different kind of strategy, a not at all superior version, and really sort of dull other than for the occasional practice round or funky tournament event, IMO. 

Fewer clubs, fewer choices.  Fewer choices, less strategy.  Playing away from any and all trouble simply because you are limited in the shots you can execute just isn't a very interesting way to play golf, at least on a regular basis.

You put bunkers on golf courses to, among other things, test a player's ability.  You put contour into greens for the same reason. You do LOTS of things in your designs to test the player's ability to overcome a challenging shot, and yet would like to see players play your courses with LESS ability to accept the challenges that you've designed?  I just don't get it.  At all...

A.G.:


We put in bunkers and contour greens to make the game more challenging.


Having fewer clubs would also make the game more challenging, in my opinion.  It would counter some of the erosion of challenge caused by longer-hitting players and clubs ... because as they hit it longer, the gaps between their clubs grow bigger, so having fewer clubs means they are less likely to be able to make a "normal" full swing and get to where they want.


I wasn't suggesting it for everybody, all the time.  I was suggesting it for better players and for the professionals in particular, for whom I think ten clubs is still too many.


Do you really think deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy" ?  To me, strategy is deciding where you want to go, and then it's a matter of execution to get there.

Tom,
I don't think "deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy"".  I think THAT decision is an RESULT of strategy IF there are multiple options available, or doubt in the player's mind about which option to take. 

With all due respect, I believe that you are thinking simplistically about the choices a golfer makes, as if golf is about a yardage and a club for that yardage, with nothing else in play.  If I'm faced with a shot of 145 yds. on perfectly flat terrain, with a perfect lie, on a windless day, to a target with no hazards impinging, and with no preferred angle for the next shot, then there isn't much strategy involved at all.

But how many times on one of YOUR courses would I face such a shot?  And so on one 145 yd. shot, I might have to hit anything from a 5 iron to a 9 iron for that shot, depending on what I want to risk and what the conditions are.  If I have each of those clubs, I have to decide which one to hit to give myself the best opportunity to overcome the set of circumstances that you have provided me.  If I do NOT have all of those clubs, my choices become fewer.

For instance, suppose because of uphill terrain, wind in my face, and a penal front bunker, I'd like to hit two extra clubs on that 145 shot.  But what if, instead of a bag with not only my "perfect conditions" 145 club (7 iron now days; I'm old) but also a 5 and a 6, I ONLY have the 7.  Now there is only one way to play the hole, and since I can't hit the 7 iron uphill into the wind and carry the bunker even if I hit it perfectly, I just have to lay up.  That's not MORE strategy, it's less; a LOT less.

And I feel the same way about the pros, fwiw.  If Day and Noren hadn't carried full 14 club bags, and had to lay up on 18 instead of hitting the heroic second shot or the great recovery second shot, would that tournament and playoff have been as exciting?  If limited clubs force a particular choice, and a full set allow for multiple choices, that again is MORE strategy, not less.

[George Pazin]

AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.


As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.


Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?


This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...

[JHoulihan]

I have read this thread multiple times from trackman to compare my averages to the professionals.
Professionals from the trackman site
Driver 275
3 Wood 243
5 Wood 230
Hybrid 225
3 212
4 203
5 194
6 183
7 172
8 160
9 148
pw 136
Gaps 9-12 yards between most clubs

Possible pro bag
Driver 275
3 wood 243
3 iron 213
6 183
9 150
wedge 120
Putter
Gaps 30 yards with 7 clubs total

Me personally
Driver 260
4 wood 245
3 hybrid 230
4 hybrid 215
5 200
6 185
7 170
8 155
9 140
pw 125
52 110
56 95
60 80
Gaps 15 yards

If I were to carry more this would be one option
4 wood 245
4 hybrid 215
6 185
8 155
PW 125
56 95
putter
Gaps 30 yards with 7 clubs total

Example player
Driver 200
3 wood 185
Hybrid 170
5 155
6 140
7 125
8 110
9 95
pw 80

They may keep the following
3 wood 185
5 155
7 125
9 95
putter
Gaps 30 yards with 5 clubs total

Bottom line: The longer player you are off the tee the more clubs you may hope to take even with 30 yard gaps
Example 275 driver - 136 wedge = 139 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 5/6 with putter
Example 200 driver - 80 wedge = 120 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 4/5 with putter
Example 150 driver - 60 wedge = 90 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 3/4 with putter

[A.G._Crockett]

AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.


As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.


Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?


This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...

George,
Read it again, slowly and carefully, and with some imagination.  Perhaps you can get it.

I never wrote anything in ANY post on this thread about simply having a club for every distance, so I guess I am, in fact, calling you crazy.  Didn't mean to, but you've painted me into a corner.  Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear.  I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.

I'm sure you've faced a shot that plays longer (or shorter) than the distance; that's golf.  Slope, wind, hazards, lies, even temperature; all of these and more play into the decision of what club to hit besides just the distance of the shot.  If I have a full complement of clubs, I can play MORE shots, not less.  There is MORE strategy in deciding which shot to play, not less.

All I've said, and I've said it all along, is that fewer clubs mean fewer options; there's just no way around it.  I get that fewer clubs require one to "strategize" their way around the course in a different way, but the presumption in this thread that it's somehow more skillful to play golf that way just isn't supportable.  Is it easier to learn to hit 5 clubs, or 10?  10, or 14?

Surely that's not too complicated.

[Garland Bayley]

...  Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear.  I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
...

Well, with 14 driving holes, and 4 unreachable par 5s, you could be hitting 18 drivers, even with 30 clubs in your bag. That must be unspeakably dull. Then there are those 36 putts with the putter. It's amazing you don't quit the game out of complete boredom.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

If I'm playing alone 3w, 4i, 6i, 8i, PW, Putter for ease of carrying. Also I'll avoid walking in the wrong direction to back tees to save time and effort. If the course favours the odd irons I'll swop them. Playing with partners I'll add Driver and SW which is fine for me and gives me an excuse if I get crushed!!!

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting how some folks are building their limited ‘set’ bottom up and are leaving out a SW.
I look at building a limited ‘set’ a different way (obviously always including a putter).
Given how many shots are played around the greens and how many greens are missed a SW or close equivalent is pretty much essential. Not just a loft matter either, flange/sole shape/bounce etc as important.
And modern drivers are more hitable off the deck than persimmons of yesterday-year.
Atb

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Thomas,  it depends a bit on the type of courses you are playing. I play ground game courses so all my irons will come into play round the green. PW is good enough for exiting bunkers,
and if a short aerial is required over a bunker I'll just accept the best answer with what I have, including slinging a chip on the side curve of a bunker.

[Thomas Dai]

J C-S,
Yes it does depend a bit on the type of course and I usually vary my ‘limited set’ accordingly. I also vary it depending on the wind!
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

I am not sure what we are trying to accomplish here other than to have to fun speculating?  The game would change how it is played if there were less clubs used probably much more so than if there were more.  Take this to an extreme, you only have one club?  It would be a very different game.  If someone had 20 clubs, it probably wouldn't matter that much. 


The reason I sometimes play with only a few clubs is because it forces you to play all kinds of different shots and also teaches you feel.  Try hitting a 5I 40-50 yards shorter than your "normal" shot.  Or try hitting a wedge an extra 15 or 20.  Both can be done successfully with practice.  Same goes for hitting a driver varied yardages and/or with a fade or a draw to adjust distance and control. 


Pick four or five clubs and play a full round.  It is great for your golf game and will make you appreciate your full set or for some, make you realize you might not need every club in the bag and that there is no such thing as "a gap in your yardages" because you can adjust to hit your clubs almost any yardage you want 

[A.G._Crockett]

...  Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear.  I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
...

Well, with 14 driving holes, and 4 unreachable par 5s, you could be hitting 18 drivers, even with 30 clubs in your bag. That must be unspeakably dull. Then there are those 36 putts with the putter. It's amazing you don't quit the game out of complete boredom.

Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm.  That always elevates a discussion.

For the record, I can't hit my driver off the deck, so my decisions on unreachable par 5's (which most are now) are about angles and distances.  Most of the time, I use a 2 hybrid as the layup club, but with a bad lie, or a particular bunker in play, or water, that might change, of course, usually to the 4 hybrid.  I carry a 3 wood, but rarely hit a fairway wood anymore, except on par 4's where driver is too much; much more control and just as much distance with the 2 hybrid off the deck, and I just don't have the swing speed to elevate even a 16.5* 3 wood anymore.

As to putting, I average 32.4 putts per round, not 36; statistically, it's the best thing I do.  I putt face-on and my putter has only 1 degree of loft, so even just into the fringe, I'll almost always chip.  I've been using the Paul Runyan "Rule of 12" method for chipping for about 20 years now, and I chip with anything from a 4 hybrid to a 54* wedge; I like to get the ball rolling as quickly as possible.  My most lofted club is a 58* wedge, which I use mostly from the sand, and never to chip.  (FWIW, it was the Rule of 11 when Runyan devised it a zillion years ago, but clubs have been delofted, so it's now 12.)
 
And, no, I never get bored on a golf course, except when I'm swinging really poorly and can't get it fixed.  Golf is what I do for refuge from things that have happened in my life that aren't very pleasant; I get lost in the process of the game, and feel better when I finish.  And I love to compete; I'd rather play and lose a couple of dollars than not play for anything.  I play every local senior tournament and club event that I possibly can; probably played about 20 last year, and hope to play more this year.  I had some hip trouble last year, along with family illness situations, that kept me out of a few that I wanted to play.  First ones this year are on back-to-back days the first week of March.  I started work with the teaching pro I work with last fall as soon as the last tournament of the year was over, and have spent the winter trying to get better; time will tell.  The weather here in NC has been the worst I've ever seen, so I'm not sure how far along I am in the process.

Several posts back, Lou Duran suggested that I might not been like most others here; that is almost certainly true.  And I wouldn't either urge others to be more like me OR wish my life on anybody else.

But I'll tell you this; if you want to get just absolutely roasted, go on GCA.com and suggest that it isn't good for the game to bifurcate, or to roll back the ball, or to use 14 clubs.  The tolerance level here for opinions contrary to the "conventional wisdom" is unlike anything I've experienced among civilized, educated people.  It gets discouraging.

Hope that helps.

[George Pazin]

AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.


As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.


Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?


This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...

George,
Read it again, slowly and carefully, and with some imagination.  Perhaps you can get it.

I never wrote anything in ANY post on this thread about simply having a club for every distance, so I guess I am, in fact, calling you crazy.  Didn't mean to, but you've painted me into a corner.  Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear.  I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.

I'm sure you've faced a shot that plays longer (or shorter) than the distance; that's golf.  Slope, wind, hazards, lies, even temperature; all of these and more play into the decision of what club to hit besides just the distance of the shot.  If I have a full complement of clubs, I can play MORE shots, not less.  There is MORE strategy in deciding which shot to play, not less.

All I've said, and I've said it all along, is that fewer clubs mean fewer options; there's just no way around it.  I get that fewer clubs require one to "strategize" their way around the course in a different way, but the presumption in this thread that it's somehow more skillful to play golf that way just isn't supportable.  Is it easier to learn to hit 5 clubs, or 10?  10, or 14?

Surely that's not too complicated.

My apologies, my post apparently did not come across as intended. I just find it fascinating that two thoughtful people (feel free to add "somewhat" before that in my case, if you prefer ), can have such different experiences and insights into the same question.


In a literal sense, you are correct - if you can hit any club high, low, draw, fade, all out, 3/4, etc - then the more clubs you have, certainly the more options you have. I guess it's just my experience that many of these overlap and having just the right club for every situation means the decision making is limited. But I can certainly see your side.


My feeling is simply that, with fewer clubs, the golfer is forced to be more creative with those clubs. I played 9 holes with my 6 iron last year and was continually confronted with difficult situations - having to open the face waaaaaaay up (MattWardSpeak, for those who remember) to play out of a bunker, for instance. I didn't view my options as limited, but rather different and varied. I know I didn't have to make a decision as to which club I was hitting, but if I wanted to minimize my score, I had to map out the hole in ways I hadn't previously, with a full bag.


Just different perspectives, I guess.


Feel free to call me crazy, you won't hurt my feelings, as you're likely not even the first person today to make such an observation. I've often wondered if I'm the smartest dumb person around or the dumbest smart person, so being called crazy doesn't much faze me...

[Sean_A]

I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.

You need to get with the times. By playing with 14 clubs, you are depriving yourself of full enjoyment of the game. Truly enjoying the game means playing with fewer than 10 clubs, with 5-6 being ideal.

I know you are being snarky, but I don't play with less clubs for any other reasons than to lighten my bag and make the game simpler.


I can see both sides of the George/AG debate.  Less clubs can limit options...naturally because there are fewer tools in the bag.  However, less clubs can also make one more creative with shots.  It might even be argued that laying up for angles to pitch and putt is more creative than whipping out the perfect tool for the job and going for it. 


George


You still confuse the hell out of me. Any statistics I have seen and experience tells me, that high cappers are short of the target far more often than not.  Hence the logic of saying why not take an extra club instead of relying on the near mythical "I can hit this club X yards".  I don't believe most high cappers have a realistic idea of how far their clubs go unless its on the flat on a windless day 

Ciao

[George Pazin]

AG -


Think about it this way, if you can indulge me:


I once played a round with a guy about twice my age (30 versus 60+). He hit 3 wood off of every tee and quite often in the fairway (sometimes a 5 wood) just to reach the greens. He also chipped and putted the lights out. I played with a full set of irons (I don't know why, but I personally struggle with woods, regardless of if they're actually wood, or metal, or whatever). He was constantly intrigued that we'd walk out and by almost side by side off the tee, with me hitting mostly 4 irons off the tee. And I'd be hitting 7 and 8 irons into the greens, while he'd be hitting his 3 and 5 woods. And he trounced me.


I don't think either of us felt limited by our options, we were just having fun.

[George Pazin]

Sean -


I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.


So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.


There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...

[David Davis]

Missed this debate but play all winter with half a set every winter.


Driver
3 wood
Rescue
5 iron
7 iron
9 iron
56 deg
putter


I do it because of pain in my si joints and hip when the weather gets cold and nasty so need the bag to be light.

[JMEvensky]

I can see both sides of the George/AG debate.  Less clubs can limit options...naturally because there are fewer tools in the bag.  However, less clubs can also make one more creative with shots.  It might even be argued that laying up for angles to pitch and putt is more creative than whipping out the perfect tool for the job and going for it. 

I can also see both points of view. I probably side with George by a hair that having fewer clubs requires more creativity. But I also think a lot of the creativity is a function of the condition of the golf course. You can make a 7 iron do a lot more things on a firm golf course.

[Peter Pallotta]

I too see both sides. 
But it's apples and oranges.
AG, who is playing the game (and entering tournaments) with the wholly legitimate goal of shooting his lowest possible score, quite  understandably finds all the challenge and fun and mental/emotional/creative engagement he seeks from the game in pursuit of that goal -- and, because he is a good golfer, is able to effectively utilize in that pursuit the full number of clubs that he's allowed. 
The differences between *that* golfer and goal and *this* one (ie me) are many and stark -- hence our different approches (to the game) and responses (here).

[George Pazin]

I too see both sides. 
But it's apples and oranges.

It is indeed apples and oranges. I just find it interesting when two people can look at the same "fact(s)" and come to dramatically different conclusions. And I've always respected the way AG thinks and posts, which magnifies things even greater.

[Matthew Mollica]

My hickory club rounds usually take place with 9 clubs which is arguably one or two clubs too many. Reducing the maximum number of clubs is no answer to the distance issue but it will make the game faster, more affordable, and likely accentuate the skill gap enjoyed by superior players.

[David_Elvins]

Jordan Speith has had a tough time on the 12th at Augusta, a hole that is known to favour left handers because for them,  the common short left amd long right miss stay in play.


Now imagine him standing on the tee next year , leading the Masters by one and having to decide between playing a right handed 9 iron or a left handed 8 iron.  I cant think of a more intriguing test of the mental game than that.  Unfortunately the 14 club rule completely disincentivises Jordan from playing left handed golf clubs.


The game would be more interesting and more skilful if it encouraged dual sides play.  There is no doubt the 14 club limit has worked against this.

[Garland Bayley]

... Any statistics I have seen and experience tells me, that high cappers are short of the target far more often than not. 

A caddy we had at Sherwood CC must have read the same statistics. I would figure it was 125 or so from the sprinkler heads, and he would laser the flag and tell me 135. I would figure it was 150 or so from the sprinkler heads,
 and he would laser the flag and tell me 165. After air-mailing 3 or four greens, I began to ignore his measurements entirely. Since I started hitting it the right distance, he probably figured he was right to tell me extra yards.

Hence the logic of saying why not take an extra club instead of relying on the near mythical "I can hit this club X yards".  I don't believe most high cappers have a realistic idea of how far their clubs go unless its on the flat on a windless day 

You may be talking about high cappers that don't play very often. At one point I had determined that my 8 iron went 150 yards (pre vanishing loft times), and I had full confidence in it, so I hit tee shots to leave me 150 to the green. Shot better scores that way.
Ciao