Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?

[Thomas Dai]

So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?

Wondering, in the first instance - ?? - if course lengths would over time morph into being shorter if less folks were carrying a low lofted Driver (ie carrying instead say a 12-14* club for both tee and fairway play)? Not entirely sure of this myself, just openingly wondering.

To move on a bit further, it should have a GCA effect if a max club loft were introduced at the same time.

atb


PS - how about incorporating a 9-hole evening 7 clubs only event at Buda?

[Garland Bayley]

I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now.  Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs.  Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots.  I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.

If you’ve been playing with only 8 clubs for a while, presumably exclusively, how do you know whether you would score the same with 14 clubs?

I never saw a fluctuation in my scores when I first switched over. It sounds crazy, I was genuinely surprised.  I believe I heard someone won the US Open with 7 clubs once before.

When I have gone from 14 to 8, and then back to 14 (my push cart was broken down), I saw no more that usual fluctuations in my score, and handicap.

[Garland Bayley]

It is an interesting exercise.


Most golfers would actually score bettter, especially newer players.
I usually only allow them to buy 6-7 clubs, despite their insistence on a full set.


Lofted Driver(for women as much as 14 degrees-men 11-13), 7 wood 7 iron, 9 iron, SW, putter and one other are plenty.
Saves a lot of time also as there are less questions about what club to use where and endless caddy/pro discussion.


As they improve you add a few to fill in gaps-meanwhile , it's a lot easier to get proficient with 2-4 clubs rather than trying to learn 12-13 different lie angles, lengths and lofts


Usually I'm undermined by a spouse or parent who buys them a set of 16 clubs for a birthday surprise.
...

Of course the golf club manufacturers and retailers are pushing them for the full set plus extra wedges and hybrids to the benefit of the business, and IMO this is a detriment to bringing new players to the game. Why is a new player going to stick with a game that has all these implements that he cannot use effectively?

[Peter Flory]

I really think that the 1 stroke per club is an interesting concept for tournament golf.  Then there would be no limit to the number of clubs that players are allowed to carry.  The optimization point would changed based on the golf courses and setups, so it would provide ongoing intrigue. 

[Garland Bayley]

So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.


What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?

Absolutely none.

[Garland Bayley]

When I first started playing golf often again after becoming an empty nester, I played with a single digit friend who found my aging blades from my youth to be quite odd, and he suggested I get newer clubs. After a few years I had 3 and 4 hybrids, and a lob wedge to go with my new "game improvement" irons. As I was nearing 60, I could no longer get a three wood up in the air that well. Since we have a no posting season, I decided I should use that season to work on the clubs I couldn't hit well. I put together a set of

60 degree lob
PW (I had to have one club I thought I could hit well, and after all it really was a 9 iron given vanishing loft disease)
5 iron
3 wood
putter

I played my usual nassau with my friends, asking for one extra stroke. After regularly taking their money, they refused to give me the extra stroke.

Toughest shot for that set was the 130 yard par 3 to green fronted by water. I played a restricted swing with a 5 iron opened up wide to gain loft and hold the green.

[Garland Bayley]

At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.

This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.

An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.

[Brian Finn]

At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.

This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.

An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.

What is your handicap? 

[Garland Bayley]

At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.

This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.

An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.

What is your handicap?

19

[Brian Finn]

At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.
An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.

What is your handicap?

19

That's incredible control for a 19.  I occasionally play with a short set as well, and while i certainly try to hit half and 3/4 shots, distance control is not easy to master. I figured the short set works best for players at opposite ends of the spectrum, but for different reasons. Better players are good ball strikers and have better command of their shots, while for lesser players, there isn't much difference between a 4/5 iron, 7/8 iron, etc because they don't consistently hit their clubs precise distances (i.e. It doesn't matter).   I'm closer to the latter, personally.   

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

I don't see many high handicappers not knowing how far they hit clubs. A well struck 7 will always go a specific distance farther than a well struck 8. When I was young, it was probably 15 yards farther. Now it is about 10 yards depending on weather, etc. The high handicappers I play with have more problem getting their handicap down due to a failure to square the club face, rather than a failure to know how far they hit their clubs.

[Garland Bayley]

When I was a kid starting the game I used to have to rent clubs.  Usually you'd get a bag with some odd lots...a 1 or 3 wood, something like 3, 5, 7, and 9 iron, and a putter.

...

Now that is 4, 6, 8, PW, or in the case of your new set. 5, 7, 9, GW. 

[Mark_Fine]

The choice of clubs for me would depend on the course.  Those who know me know I play my home club Lehigh every so often with just a few clubs (usually four) - Driver, 5I, PW and Putter are often my choices but I vary them depending on what I want to work on.  No better way to work on hitting "shots" then playing with only a few clubs. 

[Garland Bayley]

One pro I read said you should be able to hit every club in your bag to a pin 100 yards away.
Other stories are of pros demonstrating that it does no good to know what club they used, because they can demonstrate that they can hit many different clubs to the pin from the same location.

So what we really are talking about is the need to hit it high or not. I would suggest you need a PW to hit it high. a 6 to hit it mid high, and a 2 to hit it low. A sand iron, a club to hit it as far as possible from a tee, and a club to hit it as far as possible from the ground, plus putter of course. That's 7 clubs. That's what we should require the pros to use.

[Peter Pallotta]

To Tom's original thought experiment, as it applies to me and with an architectural slant:

On a 6600 yard course, with few forced carries, firm rolling turf, open-fronted but contoured greens, sandy bunkers, little rough, and a variety of recovery options, I would try to push the issue by taking the very fewest penalty strokes (ie the fewest clubs) possible. A 3 Wood, a 2 Hybrid, a 6 iron, a PW and a Putter. 5 clubs in all, with the hope that I might be able to shoot a decent gross score and an even better net one.

But if you put me on a 7100 yard course, with little roll in the fairways and with easy to putt but 'well protected' greens with rough as a primary defence both there and along the fairways, I'd have to do the opposite, ie accept more penalty strokes (ie because of the number of clubs) with the hope that my gross score at least would stay south of 95. So: Driver, 5 Wood, 3-5-6-8-9 irons, PW, SW, and Putter. 10 clubs in all 

[Pat Burke]

Just personal experience....I didn't play much at all from 2001 thru 2011.


When I attempted Champions q school the first time, I played with a friend's irons and wedges, mine were to old, illegal grooves.


My second attempt, a couple years later, I prepared for, and worked on my equipment.


The balls and clubs had changed so much, that when I found the clubs to fit my yardage gaps, I had twelve clubs.  I was hitting my driver about 260 in the air,m7 iron about 163.  I didn't really have enough speed/height on the ball to need the other clubs.  A 3 and 4 hybrid basically only flew 6-7 yards different, so I made my gap 12 yards through my set and found I only needed 12 clubs....made things simple!!!  As I loose clubhead speed, I can see using 10-11 clubs tbh

[Steve Lang]

   Pat, What's your classic driver and 5-iron speeds now.  You make a very important point about distance gaps...




Tom D,  you'll be amused that I've played your Black Forest, High Pointe, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Dismal, Loop, and most recently Streamsong courses with my basic set of P, 52 deg wedge, PW, 8I, 6I, 5 hybrid, 7W & 2W (12 deg)...  3-4 balls, its all I need.   So is your formula proposal also for match play?

[BHoover]

If playing with only 8 clubs, that seems to me more reason to need to rely on the use of a laser or rangefinder.

[Sean_A]

Brian,

I don't see many high handicappers not knowing how far they hit clubs. A well struck 7 will always go a specific distance farther than a well struck 8. When I was young, it was probably 15 yards farther. Now it is about 10 yards depending on weather, etc. The high handicappers I play with have more problem getting their handicap down due to a failure to square the club face, rather than a failure to know how far they hit their clubs.

You aren't really siting the issue...the issue is about expectations.  I see high cappers expect to hit their max distance with clubs all the time without regard to the consequences should they not pull the shot off...and they rarely pull it off.  Generally speaking, most high cappers in most instances should use more club than they believe to be accurate for their well struck shot.  It doesn't make a lot of difference if a high capper knows how far his well hit shot goes when he pulls it off so rarely.  If the mantra of golf is not about the best shots, but the misses has any truth to it, it is especially so for high cappers.  I am ecstatic if I hit 10 full shots in a round as I planned...more or less.   

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

In a way I agree with you, Sean. But I think any good golf shot (by any level of golfer) depends a lot of self-confidence and a positive attitude, and on the free bold swing that comes with that.
And few things can so wreck confidence and impede a bold swing as the typical advice given by better golfers to worse ones to 'use more club'.
It sounds like good advice, and most of the time the mid to high capper probably *should* use more club; but on the other hand, psychologically it is an absolute shot-wrecker to stand there and calmly think 'Well, a good solid swing with this club should give me the 160 yards that I need' ...only to seconds later get a more timid and timorous thought like 'Yeah, but knowing me I'll probably hit it a bit fat or too high up on the face, so I better go back to my bag and get one more club, just like they say I should". 
After that kind of negative self-talk even Jack Nicklaus isn't likely to put a smooth sweet positive swing on the ball and hit a good golf shot, regardless of whether he took more club or less.
Which, ironically, is why I think mid-high cappers can score even better with a half set, ie they're *forced* to take one more club, and so the choice is engendered by necessity instead of negative self talk.
And that, I believe, makes a big difference in the typical outcome.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Herb Graffis' take on the subject.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1936feb38.pdf

[Pete_Pittock]

     I'd start with driver, wedge, putter. In between the driver and wedge would select clubs at 20 yard intervals. You should be able to hit a full swing shot to most greens at that interval.  For me driver =200, wedge =90. I'd select for 110 (8i), 130(6i), 150 (9w), 170(4w). My 17 hdcp would jump to 23, and I think I'd net pretty much what I do now.
     Now I play at 6000. If I had to go to 7000 I'd use 3 clubs Driver, 3 wood wedge, but depends on par 3 yardages and hazards thereon. Wouldn't enjoy it. Years ago I played PGA West. If I remember correctly blues on the front in something around 50, went back to the tips on the back and was in the low 40s because I could drive it to the fairway and couldn't reach the trouble with the 2s;tjk o ISomeeh , played


I think about $1000 should cover all your clubs, assigning $50/hr for club-fitting.

[Thomas Dai]

.... I didn't really have enough speed/height on the ball to need the other clubs.  A 3 and 4 hybrid basically only flew 6-7 yards different, so I made my gap 12 yards through my set and found I only needed 12 clubs....made things simple!!!  As I loose clubhead speed, I can see using 10-11 clubs tbh

Nicely described Pat. As one gets older and/or become a slower swinger, the yardage gaps decrease, so the 'need' to carry 14 clubs declines.
Another reason for the guys and gals we see on TV to be limited to carrying less clubs in the bag. More partial/half/finesse shots. Let's see more skill and course management on TV.
atb

[Scott Warren]

If playing with only 8 clubs, that seems to me more reason to need to rely on the use of a laser or rangefinder.

The opposite, I’ve found.


As feel and creativity become more important, the exact distance to the hole becomes far less important.


Windy conditions and firm turf helps. Can’t imagine it being as easy playing with 10-11 clubs on a soft inland course with little to no wind.

[Sean_A]

I find that I need an extra wood and an extra wedge on US courses because generally more carries are required...especially around greens due more snad and rough.

Pietro

I don't think of it as negative talk...more realistic talk for two reasons

1) It makes golfers look at the trouble spots...generally...most of the trouble is in front of greens...not behind...except, generally on Ross courses 

2) Handicap golfers rarely hit their max yardage.  It will pay more often than not to take a club which you know will carry trouble...just as it is conversely true that it will pay more often than not to make sure you take a club which will be short of trouble...if you are going to lay-up then damn it...lay up.  So sure, for the lay-up shots definitely take ino account max yardages for clubs and then do the opposite of what I wrote above     

At the moment I don't have a clue how far my clubs go because of a dicky wrist and I am finding myself going long much more than previously.  It reminds me of when I first started playing in the UK back when they used shorter flag sticks...it took me some while to re-learn the visuals of a shot...I was long a ton. 

Ciao