[BCowan]

Mike,


   I disagree with you in regards to difficulty and change of elevation.  Grosse Ile is the more difficult IMO of the 2 and they have about the same number of elevation change throughout the course.  Besides the point, difficulty isn't a criteria in properly evaluating a course IMO.  I can't speak for Detroit N for I haven't played it but Grosse Ile's greens are top tier Ross.  Western is not anywhere close to the Top 100 in it's current state.  Top 50 is a laugh. 

[Mike Bodo]

Mike,


   I disagree with you in regards to difficulty and change of elevation.  Grosse Ile is the more difficult IMO of the 2 and they have about the same number of elevation change throughout the course.  Besides the point, difficulty isn't a criteria in properly evaluating a course IMO.  I can't speak for Detroit N for I haven't played it but Grosse Ile's greens are top tier Ross.  Western is not anywhere close to the Top 100 in it's current state.  Top 50 is a laugh.

I'll give you your argument of Grosse Isle's greens being better. My argument regarding elevation change was more to do with DGC North, not Grosse Isle. I know you don't place as much stock in course ratings as I and others do, but Western is the more difficult of the two, i.e. 74.2 and 140 (slope) from the tips vs. 72.9 and 133.

[Sean_A]

Mike,


   I disagree with you in regards to difficulty and change of elevation.  Grosse Ile is the more difficult IMO of the 2 and they have about the same number of elevation change throughout the course.  Besides the point, difficulty isn't a criteria in properly evaluating a course IMO.  I can't speak for Detroit N for I haven't played it but Grosse Ile's greens are top tier Ross.  Western is not anywhere close to the Top 100 in it's current state.  Top 50 is a laugh.

I'll give you your argument of Grosse Isle's greens being better. My argument regarding elevation change was more to do with DGC North, not Grosse Isle. I know you don't place as much stock in course ratings as I and others do, but Western is the more difficult of the two, i.e. 74.2 and 140 (slope) from the tips vs. 72.9 and 133.

Mike

Part of the problem with rating/slope is elements such as green difficulty are hard to pin point. It is very easy to drop a half dozen shots on Grosse Ile's greens without realizing the approaches were indifferent.

I would very much like it if you did a tour of Western.  Its been a long time since I saw the course.

Ciao

[BCowan]

I'll give you your argument of Grosse Isle's greens being better. My argument regarding elevation change was more to do with DGC North, not Grosse Isle. I know you don't place as much stock in course ratings as I and others do, but Western is the more difficult of the two, i.e. 74.2 and 140 (slope) from the tips vs. 72.9 and 133.

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/grosseilegcc/detailedscorecard.htm

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/westerngcc/detailedscorecard.htm

Mike,

I think Western's Par 3's are more difficult, but I think Grosse Ile's Par 5's are harder.  The par 4's are a push, but greens at Ile will lead to more 3 putts.  The yardage is 6800 at both tracks, but the Ile is par 71.  I have friends that do course ratings, but I don't put much value in them.  It's too bad that you value course difficulty, Western has very good land features of ridges and river running through much of the property which is much more important than relation to par.  Western sits in a flood plain and would require a lot of capping to make it play well IMO.  Both Western and the Ile have very good bones, it is a shame they probably will never reach their potential. 

"Beware of the guy with a measuring stick"- paraphrase Donald Ross

[Ryan Taylor]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

Mid Pines should be higher. Some would argue that Detroit GC (South) is more interesting than Detroit GC (North). Nevertheless, Grosse Isle is better than both and should be placed higher. I agree with Cowan ~ GI is a sleeping giant that is located on the wrong side of Detroit.

[Sean_A]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

Some would argue that Detroit GC (South) is more interesting than Detroit GC (North). Nevertheless, Grosse Isle is better than both and should be placed higher. I agree with Cowan ~ GI is a sleeping giant that is located on the wrong side of Detroit.

+1.  I think, as is often the case, brand name carries undue weight.  To me, it is very clear the terrain and greens at Grosse Ile make it better than either course at DGC.  The big problem with Grosse Ile is the bunkering...and not just the aesthetics, but green quality far outweighs bunker quality.

Ciao

[Jeff Bergeron]

Mike,


   I disagree with you in regards to difficulty and change of elevation.  Grosse Ile is the more difficult IMO of the 2 and they have about the same number of elevation change throughout the course.  Besides the point, difficulty isn't a criteria in properly evaluating a course IMO.  I can't speak for Detroit N for I haven't played it but Grosse Ile's greens are top tier Ross.  Western is not anywhere close to the Top 100 in it's current state.  Top 50 is a laugh.

I'll give you your argument of Grosse Isle's greens being better. My argument regarding elevation change was more to do with DGC North, not Grosse Isle. I know you don't place as much stock in course ratings as I and others do, but Western is the more difficult of the two, i.e. 74.2 and 140 (slope) from the tips vs. 72.9 and 133.

Both GI and Western have great bones but in their present state are very tired. I agree with where they are rated. However, with a modest investment (starting with a chainsaw) both could easily add at least 2 Doak points.

[Bob Montle]

What is the maximum number of courses attributed to Ross that were built in any single year?  Five?  Eight?

[Mike Bodo]

Mike

Part of the problem with rating/slope is elements such as green difficulty are hard to pin point. It is very easy to drop a half dozen shots on Grosse Ile's greens without realizing the approaches were indifferent.

I would very much like it if you did a tour of Western.  Its been a long time since I saw the course.

Ciao

Sean, I'm a member at Western and would love to have you out. Last year was a rough one as far as course condition was concerned. We battled summer patch throughout most of the summer, which affected a few greens and landing areas just in front. However, in 2016 (my first year at the club) the course was in excellent condition, with the greens firm and fast (the way I like them). We're hoping with timely maintenance and both upgrades and investments to course improvements, that Western will return to its former glory.

[Mike Bodo]

Both GI and Western have great bones but in their present state are very tired. I agree with where they are rated. However, with a modest investment (starting with a chainsaw) both could easily add at least 2 Doak points.

Agreed! On a positive note, Western is looking at doing some tree removal per recommendations received over the summer from Andy Staples of Meadowbrook CC fame. We also recently received copies of the original Ross plans for the course courtesy of the Tufts archives, although I am not sure at this time what the intention is. I know there have been rumors and whispers of renovation, but to what extent I do not know. That said, Western was intended to be a parkland course, no different than the majority of Ross courses designed and built in the metro-Detroit area. Trees are a good thing, but we have too many in certain spots and a few in really unfair spots.

[BCowan]

Both GI and Western have great bones but in their present state are very tired. I agree with where they are rated. However, with a modest investment (starting with a chainsaw) both could easily add at least 2 Doak points.

Berge,


Good to see u posting again. Maybe a 36er is in order this year at GI and W, we leave clubs at home and load the carts with chainsaws. I'm sure u know a good lawyer.  They will prob drop charges when they realize how much better the courses look.

[Sven Nilsen]

What is the maximum number of courses attributed to Ross that were built in any single year?  Five?  Eight?

Gee, sounds like someone should do a thread with a timeline or something.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Both GI and Western have great bones but in their present state are very tired. I agree with where they are rated. However, with a modest investment (starting with a chainsaw) both could easily add at least 2 Doak points.

Agreed! On a positive note, Western is looking at doing some tree removal per recommendations received over the summer from Andy Staples of Meadowbrook CC fame. We also recently received copies of the original Ross plans for the course courtesy of the Tufts archives, although I am not sure at this time what the intention is. I know there have been rumors and whispers of renovation, but to what extent I do not know. That said, Western was intended to be a parkland course, no different than the majority of Ross courses designed and built in the metro-Detroit area. Trees are a good thing, but we have too many in certain spots and a few in really unfair spots.

OK Mike, I'd like you to take a slow tour through the Western clubhouse. Look at all those old black and white pictures of when Western hosted a tour event. Then report back to me how many trees were on the Ross 'parkland''course then. It's probably 10% of what is there now.

[Sven Nilsen]

Just going to pick one course on the list above as an example, that being Columbus CC in Ohio.

The Donald Ross Society lists Columbus as an 18 hole new course in 1914, and as an 18 hole remodel in 1914 (not sure how that makes sense). 

There's a very nice write up on golfcoursearchitecture.net from last summer about the recent renovations, touting Ross' 1914 work as an addition of 9 holes and a remodeling of 9 previously existing holes.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/columbus-country-club-renovation-reaches-halfway-point

That article includes a course map produced by the renovation team "inspired by the original drawings of Ross."  If you didn't check twice you'd probably assume the map actually dates back to 1914.



But the map wasn't done by Ross, nor was any work in 1914.  And there wasn't an existing 9 hole course on the site of the Columbus CC course located adjacent to Walnut Creek in 1914 (the club's original course was at a different location).  It was an entirely new course built not by Ross, but by Tom Bendelow as noted in this April 1915 Golf Magazine article.







There's just so much wrong with the story here that a modicum of research could have prevented. 

And Columbus CC isn't the only course on the list of 100 produced above that I'd have issues with.  There are a number of examples of courses sold as a Ross where another architect deserves the bulk of the credit, or courses that are probably just flat wrong in their attribution.  None of this changes the premise of this thread, but if we're going to throw out lists of an architect's work (let alone rankings of that work), shouldn't we at least try to reflect the actual historical record?

[Tom_Doak]

Sven:


Thanks for your post.  Of course I relied on others' nominations to get to 100 courses, only having seen 60 myself.


You are right that there is a lot of obfuscation going on in the "restoration" business.  Tom Fazio's guys added 20+ bunkers to Bel Air over time, each of them with a note to "restore George Thomas style bunker" in a spot George Thomas didn't put one.  It's all about the designer label, but if it was being done with clothes or purses, we'd call it by its real name - counterfeiting.


More and more these days I get calls from clubs about renovation work, the undertone of which is "how much work do we have to do to attach your name to our course."  The answer is "ick".

[Tim Passalacqua]

Just going to pick one course on the list above as an example, that being Columbus CC in Ohio.

The Donald Ross Society lists Columbus as an 18 hole new course in 1914, and as an 18 hole remodel in 1914 (not sure how that makes sense). 

There's a very nice write up on golfcoursearchitecture.net from last summer about the recent renovations, touting Ross' 1914 work as an addition of 9 holes and a remodeling of 9 previously existing holes.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/columbus-country-club-renovation-reaches-halfway-point

That article includes a course map produced by the renovation team "inspired by the original drawings of Ross."  If you didn't check twice you'd probably assume the map actually dates back to 1914.



But the map wasn't done by Ross, nor was any work in 1914.  And there wasn't an existing 9 hole course on the site of the Columbus CC course located adjacent to Walnut Creek in 1914 (the club's original course was at a different location).  It was an entirely new course built not by Ross, but by Tom Bendelow as noted in this April 1915 Golf Magazine article.







There's just so much wrong with the story here that a modicum of research could have prevented. 

And Columbus CC isn't the only course on the list of 100 produced above that I'd have issues with.  There are a number of examples of courses sold as a Ross where another architect deserves the bulk of the credit, or courses that are probably just flat wrong in their attribution.  None of this changes the premise of this thread, but if we're going to throw out lists of an architect's work (let alone rankings of that work), shouldn't we at least try to reflect the actual historical record?

If you look at Bendelow's 9 hole routing, there are holes that don't exist anymore.  From what I understand, when Ross came through and expanded the course to 18 holes, only a few of the Bendelow holes were included in that routing. 

[Sven Nilsen]

If you look at Bendelow's 9 hole routing, there are holes that don't exist anymore.  From what I understand, when Ross came through and expanded the course to 18 holes, only a few of the Bendelow holes were included in that routing.

Tim:


Read the article.  It was Bendelow who laid out 18 holes.  The map in the 1915 article has 18 holes, not 9.


What you understand is wrong.


Sven

[BCowan]

I think we would need Bendelow's routing, unless you are saying the club copied Bendelow's routing and put Ross's name on it for selling point?  The club could have ran out of money and only built 9 holes.  Similar to Marquette GC with Langford doing an 18 hole routing and they only built 9 holes due to funds.  Ross has re-routed a few WPJ tracks and only left a few Park greens.  Inverness was a 9 hole Nichols course in which he left a short par 3 in his routing, making it 17 Ross holes.  The 2 routings you posted don't match up.


Very nice pictures of the Columbus Country Club course.According to Bradlley Klein (Discovering Donald Ross) and the listing posted by the Donald Ross Society, Ross did a remodel job on the existing 9 holes and added 9 holes in 1914.  Ross returned to do a second remodel job in 1920.CCC's original 9 was done in 1905 by Tom Bendelow.S. Bendelow

[Sven Nilsen]

[Edited this for civility.]

I'd be happy to listen to any arguments that Ross did something around 1914 at Columbus if anyone can find some proof. 

Right now, that 1915 article is the best we have on who did what.  Klein's book doesn't cover the course other than in his listing of courses, which mirrors the errors in the DRS listing.  Stuart Bendelow didn't even know what TB had done until it was laid out for him in the Bendelow list breakdown thread.

Sven

[Ira Fishman]

The History on the Club’s website portrays the story of Bendelow in 1903 and Ross thereafter.


Are there any examples of Club’s correcting their History based on new information? Or do they have an incentive to leave well enough alone?


Ira

[V. Kmetz]

TD's initial posit: "The 100th Ross is still pretty great"...proves true through the length of this thread.


My one contribution... I am disappointed not to see Siwanoy receive more immediate mention and push toward the upper ranks of the Ross canon...If in God's omniscient Doak scale, this is truly 100th+, then TD's notion is underselling it.


This is a special, special course which I am certain would meet with high kudos from the refined consensae on this board.  It has amusing, challenging half par holes; it encourages ground play; it demands strategic command of your misses; the character of individual holes and its tiny overall yardage (6150 - 6450) keep strategy alive for all classes/styles of players... it has the paradigm, Ross "fan-routing;" a great mix of Ross' eponymous domes and swaled putting surfaces, its four 1-shot holes are four of distinct character, each rewarding a different short, medium, long, aerial, or running shot...


I maintain gentle understanding that we all can't see/visit/play/be aware of every course under the sun.  But this course should be more on the lips when Ross discussions/lists are advanced.  If you're a GCA devotee pilgrim, its a course worth gaining access to when you're doing your Met/NY thing.


cheers   vk

[BCowan]

[Edited this for civility.]

I'd be happy to listen to any arguments that Ross did something around 1914 at Columbus if anyone can find some proof. 

Right now, that 1915 article is the best we have on who did what.  Klein's book doesn't cover the course other than in his listing of courses, which mirrors the errors in the DRS listing.  Stuart Bendelow didn't even know what TB had done until it was laid out for him in the Bendelow list breakdown thread.

Sven

I agree that Ross involvement in 1914 isn't proven.  The only guess is that he possibly did a routing in 1914, that never got built, similar to his involvement with Bloomfield Hills.  Franklin Hills in Detroit had a previous location closer to the city too.


It's interesting to hear the hype of the article you posted for the course.  Unfortunately it doesn't have a Bendelow routing.  It's too bad we will never know the truth for the clubhouse fire in the 60's and possibly the club minutes were lost.  Club minutes are the most reliable imo. 


Will wait for Tim to chime in later and hopefully Hargrave will respond with information that we don't have. 

[BCowan]

I didn't see Palma Ceia CC on the list?  Looks pretty solid, but haven't played it.  thoughts?

[Joe Hancock]

VK,


Thanks for the Siwanoy mention. I don’t have the Ross travel that most of you have, and I understand my feelings toward Siwanoy lie particulalry with the amount of time we spent and amount of work we had completed there...along with the friendships made. But there is so much fun golf there. Even if one looks at only the creeks that were restored, that would score huge on improvements and strategy of the property. But the greens are still the shining star there, as they should be at any Donald Ross course.

[V. Kmetz]

Thanks for the Siwanoy mention. I don’t have the Ross travel that most of you have, and I understand my feelings toward Siwanoy lie particulalry with the amount of time we spent and amount of work we had completed there...along with the friendships made. But there is so much fun golf there. Even if one looks at only the creeks that were restored, that would score huge on improvements and strategy of the property. But the greens are still the shining star there, as they should be at any Donald Ross course.

JH,


Indeed on the greens; while margins, maintenance, and material shift have altered them all from 1914... in terms of basics, you're looking at the original Ross character on all but #5 (altered first before 1937), #16 (1991-2), #6 (you guys) and #12 (many hands).


That feature , combined with the tree removals and ren-o-storation process which began in 1995, really lends a contemporary player a course existentially equivalent to the first PGA championship course, something you'd have a hard time finding or doing on any other inaugural/early year major championship courses...great place that more people need to see.


cheers  vk

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