UK Knock-Out 2018

[James Boon]

But we need to give you guys so many shots and that cant be fair! 


Cheers,


James

[Duncan Cheslett]

Seriously, I do think that mid handicappers have an advantage over low handicappers in matchplay.


A good round for me (playing off 12) will comprise a birdie or two, maybe nine pars, six or seven bogies, and a blow up hole or so.


To win a matchplay game, I will only usually have to win 6 or 7 holes. Against a 4 handicapper I get 8 shots. I am perfectly capable of parring all the holes on which I get a shot.


I actually quite like James's brother's idea. No shots on any hole - simply start 8up!


That gives the low man more opportunity to catch up, but the high man the luxury of having all his shots count, instead of some being wasted on blow up holes or on holes where he would have won the hole anyway.

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


the problem with full handicap in matchplay is the low handicapper is most likely to drop shots in bogeys where as the average 18 handicapper will more often than not throw in 2 to 3 double bogeys but play the other 15 holes under their handicap. I prefer the old 3/4 but can see a fairness in having 9/10. As for the idea of starting 8 holes up instead of giving 8 shots that hands the higher handicapper even more of an advantage and what do you do if you are giving 19 shots? Shake on the first tee before going back into the clubhouse

[Duncan Cheslett]

It's funny, when James memtioned the idea on the first tee at Hallamshire Sean's and my first reaction was that it favoured the low man.


Thinking about it now however, the high handicapper would have a advantage as none of his shots would be wasted.


Ah well, it seemed a good idea ag the time! 😀

[Mark Pearce]

The fact is, though, that a lower handicapper will play to, or around, his handicap far, far more frequently than a high handicapper.  If both play well, full allowance favours neither, if one plays well and the other badly, then the one who plays well wins.  Lower handicappers play well more often than higher handicappers, so win more often.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,


when looking at strokeplay you are correct but I do not believe it is so clear cut with matchplay. A player not playing to their handicap can beat an opponent playing to theirs. Having said that I would think the course would be the biggest factor.


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

Mark,


You are quite right in that low handicappers are far more consistent than higher handicappers, and that in medal or Stableford they will generally come out ahead.


Matchplay however, is very different. Consistency is less important. A 12 handicapper can easily score 10 over his handicap over 18 holes yet still bag half a dozen pars and a couple of birdies. Such is the nature of being a mid handicapper. That may well be enough to win a match against a Cat 1 golfer playing to his handicap. The holes where he loses two balls or piles up a double figure score don't really matter - they are merely a "loss".


I know that I have won far more matchplay games when I am receiving shots than I have when I am giving them. It's easier.

[Thomas Dai]

.....Against a 4 handicapper I get 8 shots.
I actually quite like James's brother's idea. No shots on any hole - simply start 8up!
That gives the low man more opportunity to catch up, but the high man the luxury of having all his shots count, instead of some being wasted on blow up holes or on holes where he would have won the hole anyway.

This is a new one on me. Rather like the idea. Might have to try it out. Seems an interesting variation.
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

I know that I have won far more matchplay games when I am receiving shots than I have when I am giving them. It's easier.

If that's true (and I wonder if you really have the data) you are unusual.  As previously stated, the stats suggest that even with full allowance, low handicappers win against high handicappers more often than they lose.

[Steve Wilson]

Jon Wiggett says (tongue in cheek, I think [/size]):[/color][/size]

As for the idea of starting 8 holes up instead of giving 8 shots that hands the higher handicapper even more of an advantage and what do you do if you are giving 19 shots? Shake on the first tee before going back into the clubhouse [/color][/size]


But, in all seriousness, how would you handle this.  Require the better player to win a hole by two or more shots and thus remove two from the starting deficit?  Once you would reach the full round of holes or more as the starting deficit you would be very nearly playing stroke play, would you not? Or if he wins by three shots is entitled to removing three holes from the other player's lead?


I do agree with Jon that giving holes instead of strokes in match play does seem to benefit the higher handicapper as every one of his shots given is now a winning one.  Speaking from experience, I know I've lost a lot of holes I've had the advantage on.[/color]

[James Boon]

A good round for me (playing off 12) will comprise a birdie or two...

Well thats me done! If I've come up against a 12 handicap who believes he will get a birdie or 2 in a round, he's probably going to get more than I do and its no wonder I'm going to get beaten! 


Joking aside, my biggest grumble when giving shots to a 9 to 15 h'cap who hits a decent ball is that I'm not a big hitter for a Cat 1 golfer, and so often the long par 4s where I'm giving shots, I'm struggling to get up in 2 shots myself, so often we both make 5 and I lose the hole. 


Returning to the way my brother and I occasionally play a match, it would always be at a course we didnt know, so instead of fussing over where the shots were, it was easier for me to just start 4 or 5 up. It works fine for me and him as generally solid and consistent golfers and isnt really intended to be used in matches where lots of shots are being given obviously...


Cheers,


James

[Mark Pearce]

But you will make birdies and pars at short par 4s where the 15 handicapper is making bogies and doubles.


The problems with the "start 8 up" idea (aside from what happens when there are really big differences in handicaps) are that a) it assumes players getting shots win the hole (which they often don't) and b) it completely fails to account for the hole that's won by more than one shot.  I suspect it would work far better for players of similar ability than where, as we are discussing here, there is a substantial difference in ability.

[Garland Bayley]

... what do you do if you are giving 19 shots? Shake on the first tee before going back into the clubhouse

Give a stroke a hole and the higher handicap starts one up.

[James Boon]

Just to reiterate, the idea of starting several holes up rather than giving shots was a bit of fun and only works when its a few shots. The idea of starting 8 up would be nonsense I'd say! But if anyone wants to try it and report back, feel free 


Cheers,


James

[Jon Wiggett]

James,


just out of interest is your brother's handicap 18+

[Mark Pearce]

James,


just out of interest is your brother's handicap 18+

I have a vague recollection that James' brother may give James shots.....

[Sam Andrews]

Just to reiterate, the idea of starting several holes up rather than giving shots was a bit of fun and only works when its a few shots. The idea of starting 8 up would be nonsense I'd say! But if anyone wants to try it and report back, feel free 


Cheers,


James

James,


This is spooky. I have done this at Littlestone and started 8 down! I was bamboozled into it by a friend, who claimed that a mate of his had told him about this variant and that it was fun! Anyway I played as well as I could to lose on the 16th. The pressure not to make a mistake is quite intense if you are of a vaguely competitive nature. Subsequent to the round, said friend phoned to clarify that the handicap difference should in fact have been halved! Still claimed the win, the so and so.


Sam

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sam,


Half of handicap difference sounds fairer and the makings of a fun format.


I shall try that with my son!

[Michael Whitaker]

Duncan - have you ever tried "Sunningdale Rules"? It is a great way to play a match...

Play without handicaps. It's straight-up (no strokes) match play with one exception. If either player is 2-down or more he gets a stroke.
 
Example:  If you win the first two holes and go 2-up your opponent will get a stroke on the third hole. And, he keeps getting one stroke until he gets back to 1-down... in which case you go back to playing straight up.
 
This way if you're handicaps are within plus or minus 8-10 strokes or so it will keep the match from ever getting out of hand. Unless of course one person just has an awful day. It also gives the stronger player a reasonable probability of winning if he plays well.

The big advantage is you don't need to know anybody's handicap (except to know they're not like 20 strokes better or worse than yourself). And, in that case, it's hard to come up with ANY game that's fair competition between a scratch golfer and a 22-handicaper.

We should play Sunningdale Rules for the Buda... then there would not be so much angst over handicaps and pairings.

[Steve Wilson]

Mark,


I like the sound of the Sunningdale Rules.  By all means let's give it a go.  We played Stableford quotas at this year's Dixie which made a nice and relatively simple change.  Sunningdale seems even more straightforward.

[Niall C]

Mike

I've played Sunningdale rules or at least a variation of it and can't say it was much fun for the simple fact I didn't really know where I stood at various points and it just seemed an artificial device to keep the game going. I think I would prefer to struggle to lose 4 & 3 than to take the match to the last because of pockling of the shots.

James

I know that my tactic when I play a much better player like yourself or Jon is to try and make you win the hole rather than giving them away. I feel at my level if I play relatively conservatively and not take on too many Hollywood shots I should at least manage a bogie and possibly/probably a par. As you say the pressure is then on you to get a birdie.

Niall 

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall - what variation? I’ve found true Sunningdale rules to be fantastic as it rewards good play while allowing the match to remain competitive and interesting. If the goal is to put the largest whipping possible on an opponent, then Sunningdale is not the game. However, if the goal is to have a competitive match in a gentlemanly fashion, then there is not a better game.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Niall,

To more important matters;

Have you and Tim organised your semi-final yet?

I normally take the winter off, but am braving the weather currently to keep my hand in for the big match.

I could do with it being all over by Christmas! 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Niall - what variation? I’ve found true Sunningdale rules to be fantastic as it rewards good play while allowing the match to remain competitive and interesting. If the goal is to put the largest whipping possible on an opponent, then Sunningdale is not the game. However, if the goal is to have a competitive match in a gentlemanly fashion, then there is not a better game.

Mike as you know I love Sunningdale, but its a social game to be played between friends. It diminishes the pressures inherent in Matchplay and doesn't work so well when the handicap difference is more than about 4.


It 'bends' all the rules of Competition and some days you just have to suck it up and accept a 'dog license'  (7 and 6).

[Mark Pearce]

Niall - what variation? I’ve found true Sunningdale rules to be fantastic as it rewards good play while allowing the match to remain competitive and interesting. If the goal is to put the largest whipping possible on an opponent, then Sunningdale is not the game. However, if the goal is to have a competitive match in a gentlemanly fashion, then there is not a better game.

Mike as you know I love Sunningdale, but its a social game to be played between friends. It diminishes the pressures inherent in Matchplay and doesn't work so well when the handicap difference is more than about 4.


It 'bends' all the rules of Competition and some days you just have to suck it up and accept a 'dog license'  (7 and 6).

This.  If I play really badly and my opponent really well, I'll take the drubbing that ensues.