[Ken Fry]

For many years the merits of Whistling Straits have been debated on here.  I've reviewed all the old threads and looked for a common thought about the course.

I was watching the Golf Channel yesterday and Matt Ginella showed his top 5 public golf courses in the US.  They were:

Pebble Beach
Pacific Dunes
Bethpage Black
Whistling Straits
Pinehurst #2

My first reaction was the expense to play almost every course on the list!  While many think these courses are great, I personally don't plan on paying out $500-$600 to play a few of them.  Once I got beyond expense, the one course that stands out in that group is Whistling Straits.

The magazines rank Whistling Straits like this:

Golf Digest:  #22 in US, #1 in Wisconsin, #4 Best Public in US
Golfweek:  #6 Best Modern in US, #1 Public in Wisconsin, #5 Resort in US
Golf:  #28 in US, #58 in World, #5 Public in US

I don't think Whistling Straits is even the best course at Kohler.  It has two of the worst holes at a "world class" facility I've come across.  It's over manufactured.  The 1000 bunkers are ridiculous.  There are a few phenomenal holes but the lake views give the rest of the course too much of a pass.  For $400 plus caddie tip I'd much rather play Arcadia Bluffs, have an incredible dinner and still go home with money in my pocket.  AND I don't think Arcadia Bluffs is in the top 5 public courses in Michigan!

Can someone please tell me how and why Straits gets so much praise??  Please provide sound reasoning.  I have my reasons for not liking it.  I need to understand the other side.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

It hosts big tournaments, duh.


For of the five courses in Ginella's list made their reputation by hosting tournaments.

[jeffwarne]

Pretty edgy list Matt
zzzz


They lost me at Whistling with the 10 minute "why you're going to have a great day" caddiemaster speech.
'Give me Lawsonia any day.

[Ken Fry]

Pretty edgy list Matt
zzzz


They lost me at Whistling with the 10 minute "why you're going to have a great day" caddiemaster speech.
'Give me Lawsonia any day.

Preaching to the choir Jeff.  Until I can make it to Sand Valley and form my own opinion, Lawsonia is the best in Wisconsin.


Ken

[Tom_Doak]

I was actually noticing the other day how biased the rankings are toward tournament venues, even now.  Other than GOLFWEEK's top four modern courses - none of which are tournament sites - the other rankings have places like Whistling Straits, Muirfield Village, The Ocean Course, Harbour Town, and the TPC at Sawgrass crowding higher-ranked modern designs like Old Macdonald and Bandon Trails out of the world top 100.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff W - you're my only hope, buddy. I've been a fool for thinking there was even just one covert iconoclast slowly working his way into mainstream print and tv golf coverage, waiting to secure his position before showing his true colours and giving us some outside the box brilliance.
But the truth is, 'The Man' doesn't need to worry about that anymore: the revolution is over; the bums lost!
But you - *you*. You've got the radio show, you've got the patter, you've got the credentials, you've got the connections, and you've got the NY-Long Island address. You can *fool them*, pal! The Man would never see you coming! No pressure, but, you know...

[Ken Fry]

I was actually noticing the other day how biased the rankings are toward tournament venues, even now.  Other than GOLFWEEK's top four modern courses - none of which are tournament sites - the other rankings have places like Whistling Straits, Muirfield Village, The Ocean Course, Harbour Town, and the TPC at Sawgrass crowding higher-ranked modern designs like Old Macdonald and Bandon Trails out of the world top 100.

Star struck, exclusive and free makes for a questionable combo, no?

[James Brown]

I was actually noticing the other day how biased the rankings are toward tournament venues, even now.  Other than GOLFWEEK's top four modern courses - none of which are tournament sites - the other rankings have places like Whistling Straits, Muirfield Village, The Ocean Course, Harbour Town, and the TPC at Sawgrass crowding higher-ranked modern designs like Old Macdonald and Bandon Trails out of the world top 100.

All art suffers from this bias.  There are better paintings than the Mona Lisa.  The rankings will also be most about where people want to play the most, not what’s better. 

[Terry Lavin]

It’s all fake, but dramatic and difficult fake. It can test the best and challenge while enthralling the rest. I’ve played it a handful of times and have enjoyed myself but I don’t know that it would make my top 25 and I won’t go out of my way to play it again. I think Erin Hills is better.

[MCirba]

It wouldn't be in my top 25 modern courses but it is visually and playably dramatic and much like TPC Sawgrass, seemingly made to tournament television histrionics.

[Ken Fry]

I hear what you guys are saying but at this moment in time, Straits is ranked as one of the best courses in the world.  For many of you well traveled guys it doesn't crack your top 25.

Is TD right?  Is that all it comes down to?  Pretty lake.  Big time tournaments.  A manufacture job on par with Shadow Creek.  Expensive.

Ken

[Ryan Farrow]

I can clearly look back to when I was younger and knew of nothing better, hearing that a course hosted a PGA event felt like a big deal, the assumption for me was if the PGA Tour plays there it must be one of the best courses in the world, little did I know.


You need to keep in mind that most golfers probably feel the same way and do not know any better, even if they are well traveled it does not mean they get it or understand what truly makes a course great. This goes the same for music, food, art, etc... Only those that dig deeper, ask questions and want to learn what truly makes something great will figure it out and that group will always be in the minority.


Personally I like Straits, there are some incredibly unique holes there that make it deserving of some of the accolades. My biggest complaint is how the par 3's all play parallel to the lake, all too similar. I would still place it above any of the courses in Kohler and just slightly below Erin Hills and Sand Valley, I love Lawsonia but hesitate to say it is superior.






I agree about the public ranking being way too high, closer to top 20, not top 5 and modern, it may be outside of the top 50. Time can be the great equalizer but as long as it still hosts a PGA Championship every 7 or so years, it will always be overrated.

[Joe Bausch]

For people desiring some visuals:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WhistlingStraits/index.html

The photos are from 2011 (I think!).

[V_Halyard]

As a card carrying Cheesehead let me opine.
1: It's big with a proactive, strong marketing minded proponent (Mr. Kohler)
2: It did do an economic solid for the area and state golf.
3: It was technolgically intersting. The land was as flat and level as a bowling alley (Former military base)
4: It has Majors, works the system well and looks surprisingly exotic on TV.

In short, it is the first of its kind in the state by a name modern architect. It tells an interesting story told by a strong personality, great at promotion. It delivers unexpected images of Wisconsin on global TV.

Is it the best Public Course in the State?  That's a personal opinion.
It is a must play for visitors who have seen it on TV. My guests generally end up saying they're "one and done in the bucket".
Erin somewhat falls into the same "one and done" category except for the low-handicappers. Had one buddy who claimed he was a -4 play Erin and end in tears. Definintely a Home Course -4.
The exception are the true (non-vanity) low handicappers, in honesty, they do enjoy it the most but they enjoy courses more than most anyway. The majority (>90%) of my public course playing visitors end up choosing to do multi-laps at Sand Valley, Mammoth Dunes and Lawsonia.

[Josh Tarble]

I unashamedly love the Straits course.  It's one of my favorites.  I personally think it's WAY better than Erin Hills.  I also can overlook #5 as I think, while a bit out of place, it's a fairly strategic par 5, especially for the modern game.  #18 kind of sucks too, but I also think it works better than people are willing to admit.  I think #9 is the worse hole on the course for what it's worth, but the good moments way outshine the bad for me.


For me it comes down to a couple thing:
1.  Variety - I think it's one of Dye's best courses from a variety standpoint with both the par 3s and par 4s.  Yes they're oriented in the same direction (which I think the routing is awesome), but there is such a great mix of short and long, fade and draw holes. 
2.  Playability - it's a far more playable course than it gets credit for.  Fairways are really wide, especially if a player is willing to lay back slightly.  You're typically able to find balls off the fairway - which may be tough shots, but you're lucky to even find one at Erin Hills
3.  Small details - I think it's amazing at a course so manufactured there are such great details.  I always come back to #16, and a small knob just short of the green that will kick anything but perfect shots to the left or right.  There's things like that on nearly every hole and they're hard to see through all the bunkers.


I get why people don't like it, just like people don't like a lot of Dye's designs, but I think it's absolutely one of the best modern courses in the game today.

[jeffwarne]

Just think ifor a moment that if equipment were simply rolled back(or bifurcated) 30 years-


How many (potentially) thousands of interesting, strategic, walkable,affordable, sustainable, historic(potentially)courses we could have available for display in high level events.Without being bastardized or being called a "boutique Open"


...instead of the stretched out (just play the appropriate tee BS) modern 6+ tee- 5 1/2 hour monstrosities that are needed to host today's players and therfore become popular and worse yet-an influence on the game, how it should be played, and what ridiculous compromises have become tolerable by those who should know better, or worse yet by those who simply don't /won't know any different as this ugly trend continues to become "new nomal".


To Josh's points-I respect that as well as V Halyard's points.
I reject the modern "hospitality" and dick waxing at such high end resorts-but I spose there's a market for that.
Having worked at Long Cove I really admire and respect much of Mr. Dye's work (especially how often he made somethng out of nothing), and more importantly how his former associates have continued to evolve the craft.
he was a big fan of putting a 2 iron in a Touring pros hand on a par 4.
That's not happening now unless he's hitting a tee shot-and that's how we get "Dye Creep" and courses at 8000 yards and all their trappings for elite events.


We have bifuraction NOW for the most part-of golf courses-- and most certainly -of tees.


To the original point-NONE of those courses are PUBLIC-they're resorts except Bethpage Black(see below)
that said the other options at Bethpage are good courses


Bethpage Black has the worst of both-muni treatment-sleep in your car-high price for out of state-for the right to play behind a "count 'em all" moron playing the back tees in 6 plus hours.




My 5 just off the top of my head?
Lawsonia
Aiken Golf Club
Cape Arundel (semi-private-far more accessible than ANY on Matt's list)
Ocala GC (or one of MANY other highly affordables in Florida)
Shennecossett

[Tom_Doak]

Is TD right?  Is that all it comes down to?  Pretty lake.  Big time tournaments.  A manufacture job on par with Shadow Creek.  Expensive.

Actually, now that I think about it, the other factor it has going for it is that it's the most dramatic site Pete Dye ever built on.


One step in many raters' process seems to be putting an architect's different courses in order, and then plugging them into the bigger list.  Lots of people think of Whistling Straits as bigger and more dramatic than the TPC or Harbour Town, and others rate it highly because there are no houses alongside.  All of those mini-judgments push it up the list.

[V_Halyard]

he was a big fan of putting a 2 iron in a Touring pros hand on a par 4.
That's not happening now unless he's hitting a tee shot-and that's how we get "Dye Creep" and courses at 8000 yards and all their trappings for elite events.
We have bifuraction NOW for the most part-of golf courses-- and most certainly -of tees.
To the original point-NONE of those courses are PUBLIC-they're resorts except Bethpage Black(see below)
that said the other options at Bethpage are good courses


Bethpage Black has the worst of both-muni treatment-sleep in your car-high price for out of state-for the right to play behind a "count 'em all" moron playing the back tees in 6 plus hours.




My 5 just off the top of my head?
Lawsonia
Aiken Golf Club
Cape Arundel (semi-private-far more accessible than ANY on Matt's list)
Ocala GC (or one of MANY other highly affordables in Florida)
Shennecossett

Nice. Do you think it might be time for some more tweaking? IMO, it was one of the first new modern classics and the drama and artificial feeling might benefit from some architectural softening. Not neccisarily promoting a reduction in resistance to scoring but blend the landscape a little better as golfers are becoming more accustomed to the natural patina.


It is absolutely a technological and architectural marvel that is fun to play but increasingly tougher to justify repeat rounds given the recent additions to the fantastic Wisconsin Public Access ROTA.

[V_Halyard]

Is TD right?  Is that all it comes down to?  Pretty lake.  Big time tournaments.  A manufacture job on par with Shadow Creek.  Expensive.

Actually, now that I think about it, the other factor it has going for it is that it's the most dramatic site Pete Dye ever built on.


One step in many raters' process seems to be putting an architect's different courses in order, and then plugging them into the bigger list.  Lots of people think of Whistling Straits as bigger and more dramatic than the TPC or Harbour Town, and others rate it highly because there are no houses alongside.  All of those mini-judgments push it up the list.

Most definitely the most dramatic. I grew up traveling and camping in the area. Watching that flat parking lot of a base, scattered with officers and enlisted quarters go through a transformation into the Straits was surreal. They called Herb all kinds of crazy, right up to the point where he started running out of room on the tee sheet.

[jeffwarne]

Nice. Do you think it might be time for some more tweaking? IMO, it was one of the first new modern classics and the drama and artificial feeling might benefit from some architectural softening. Not neccisarily promoting a reduction in resistance to scoring but blend the landscape a little better as golfers are becoming more accustomed to the natural patina.

IMHO no, it's not the time for tweaking-I assume they've lengthened the back tees in response to gains-I have no problem with that at an actual elite tournament venue in the absense of governing body reality action (which I would prefer).


I think Mr. Dye's style should be preserved as any attempt to make it more "natural" would actually be artificial-and just following a fad.
I don't have a problem with playing majors at WS, Erin Hills , Chambers, or The Ocean Course-I just hate that they have to because they are the few with the scale to accomodate them.

[James Brown]

Reading through these comments, I am struck by how similar Straits is to Castle Stuart in many ways.  Started from a fairly flat site.  A terraced routing.  Lots of earth moved.  Similar giant scale. 

[Phil McDade]

I'm in Josh's camp, mostly -- I think it's a very good course, and threads the needle of being both challenging for the pros (it was designed intentionally to lure and host majors), yet playable for the folks who want to challenge their game on a major-venue course. I think his review is spot-on -- I too have been mystified by the criticism of the 18th, and #5 is the trade-off Dye had to make to build the thing in the first place (a wetlands trade during the "no net loss of wetlands" environmental policies of years ago).


I think it's a good notch above any of the other Kohler courses, to address one previous comment, particularly the River Course, and I think it's a grade above Erin Hills -- EH may have a few holes that I like better, and actually plays more like a links, but its forced routing holds it back in my mind when compared to WS.

[Jason Thurman]

If you survey 100 random basketball fans (not Basketball Club Atlas members - just a random sampling of fans) and ask who the top five NBA players of all-time are, I'm guessing at least 60 would list Kobe Bryant (Whistling Straits) somewhere on the list. And that's embarrassing. Kobe was great, but he's not close to an all-time top five guy.


But he did play a style of basketball that mirrored some of the game's greatest (Michael Jordan=Irish links golf). He was great at self-promotion (as is Pete Dye, and the resort at Kohler for that matter). And he had enough legitimate chops (Footwork=routing, and the ability to make something from nothing=the ability to make something from nothing!) that the flair he brought to the table (those bunkers and that lake!) made him shine a little brighter than far superior contemporaries like Tim Duncan (Pinehurst No. 2). He played for a team that was on TV a lot (PGAs and Ryder Cups!), at a time when being on national TV mattered.


The Straits is probably closer to top 50 public than top 5, just like Kobe. But there's something to be said for showmanship and panache when the underlying product is still pretty damn good, and that whole trick where you feel like you spend 14 holes on the coastline even though sometimes you're on the 2nd tee and you're 300 yards away is pretty Mamba.

[Derek_Duncan]

Pretty edgy list Matt
zzzz


They lost me at Whistling with the 10 minute "why you're going to have a great day" caddiemaster speech.
'Give me Lawsonia any day.

Bingo.

[Steve Lapper]

I won't be able to convince you. While I don't have a bias against modern man-made golf courses per se, I've always found Whistling Straits to be disappointing. It's scale is impressive and some of the holes are truly cool and well-designed, but the excessive bunkering and faux links styling is disorienting and a distinct negative in my book. The fact that it is really a one-dimensional course (aerial) also earns a demerit in my mind.


 As a rater, I've never once given a rat's ass about whether or not the PGA (or even USGA) Circus ever stopped there. If anything, that would make me question a higher ranking period. Also, I don't sub-rank courses within the architect's portfolio. For example Tom, I am a huge fan of Stone Eagle and less so of Streamsong Blue. I do not rank the former higher than the latter.


 Like Matt Ginella's flaw of using the "pay-to-play" system for promotional exposure, I believe the PGA's relationship to many venues is little different. I agree with Ken that WS isn't even the best course on the property. Like others, I prefer Lawsonia and Erin Hills over Kohler and suspect I will likely prefer Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes eventually over all of them.

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