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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
In defense of Jan Stephenson
« on: October 12, 2003, 04:51:04 PM »
This is not PC but on this web site who the hell cares?

First, I believe Jan Stephenson that her comments were not racially motivated.  At 50 years of age and with her life she understands show business, TV revenue, corporate sponsors, ratings and money and what it takes to be successful not only as a person but as a tour.

Stephenson said in a story for the November issue of Golf Magazine that top-earning Asian players are "killing" the LPGA Tour by not making themselves more available for promotional purposes. She criticized them for playing tournaments and then leaving without talking to the media.

Second, I agree with her.  I have no interest in watching Hee-Won Han, Candie Kung and Grace Park.  Furthermore and the main reason I watch golf in general on TV is to see the courses.  The courses they play except for the Open are mostly crap.  

I have never been to a LPGA tournament although I did play in a pro-am for their futures tour.

Is the press jumping on a wounded animal here?


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2003, 05:20:42 PM »
Joel,

It is a cultural thing! Whereas the Japanese playesr, both male and female are unfailingly polite, the Koreans are anything but. The Japanese have an honour code that still exercises a powerful hold, witness seppuku in cases of failure or shame.

The recent requests for meetings between the LPGA and Korean players is apparent that something is amiss. I know it is going back a few years, but can anyone forget the monstrous decision that cost Roy Jones an Olympic Gold in boxing at the Seoul Games?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2003, 06:14:04 PM »
I think it is as much a generational thing as anything else. It was not that long ago that Annika Sorenstam and Karrie Webb were being criticised for being too aloof and not doing enough to promote the LPGA. Peter Jacobsen recently criticised the younger (American) PGA tour players for the same thing. You hear from older players criticising the attitudes of younger players in many other sports as well.

The fact of the matter is most of the Korean players on the LPGA Tour are young (under 25), are living in a foreign country separated from the families and are not probably comfortable speaking English to strangers who are much older than themselves. Who could blame them for being a little shy and withdrawn? Jan Stephenson should find something else to worry about!

I recall reading stories about several male American golfers who play the pro tour in Japan. All they were interested in doing while in Japan was playing golf. They made no effort to learn the language, try the local foods, see the sites, etc., etc. It is not easy being a stranger in a strange land.

Joel Stewart- You might want to make an effort to see Grace Park play some golf. That is worth watching.

DT

Rich_M

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2003, 06:15:25 PM »
It is hard to argue that her comments were not racially motivated when you consider that she was making a clear distinction between Asian and non-Asian players.  If her problem was with players who are not media and customer friendly why single out Asian players?  There are many non-Asian players with similar shortcomings.

(Actually, I think she is jealous of Grace Park, who in my opinion is much classier and more beautiful.)

In any event, any comment which lumps together billions of people as sharing certain negative characteristics is racist, whether or not there is some cultural basis for the belief that is held.

And if we want to pursue a racist angle,maybe a better question is what cultural characteristic(s) are at the root of the success that these women are having on tour.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2003, 06:26:03 PM »
Brian Murphys golf column on this subject ("Kim Provides Rebuttal To Stephenson") in today's SF Chronicle is worth reading. I hope someone can link it directly to this site. You can find it at:

www.sfgate.com/sports/  


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2003, 06:34:48 PM »
The most disappointing part of the interview was that the second to last question was not followed up.

Kessler: "What's the worst sexual discrimination you've faced?"

Stephenson: "Trying to break into golf course design. I try not to take it personally, but I'm very emotional and it breaks my heart. You  and every other man who has played me new course in Florida, Walkabout Golf and Country Club, love it.  All I ask is, "Give me a chance. Look at my credentials. See what I can do and see what I have done."

The interview ends with out a follow-up  question. Such as, specific examples, root causes of the discrimination, who is discriminating, how to end it, what are the credentials, etc.

Basically she got a free pass from Kessler.

noonan

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2003, 08:06:31 PM »
"(Actually, I think she is jealous of Grace Park, who in my opinion is much classier and more beautiful.)"

I would rather do Jan.

JK

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2003, 08:46:30 PM »
Jan in her late 50's?!?!??!  c'mon.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2003, 08:58:06 PM »
 :P

There is no defense of Jan Stephenson.  

For one so "knowing" she put her foot down her mouth way too easy!  She could/should have said something like the players need media training or charm school if she had half a wit of sensitivity..

The ladies at the Samsung this weekend were amazed, disappointed, and critical of her comments.

I couldn't tell what they were talking about to the asian & oriental correspondents, but the foreign players do open up and speak and talk to their supporters back home via their own press folks!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 09:18:22 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2003, 09:15:43 PM »
Is free speech to be muffled by political correctness, diplomacy, and/or stupidity ??

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2003, 09:24:27 PM »
If free speech were muffled by stupidity, I'd be mute.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2003, 09:29:03 PM »
 ::)

free speech is free speech

candid speech sells

for one interested in promoting a Sr Ladies Tour, I can't wait to hear more of her persuasiveness on that topic.  I imagine something like "come out to see the ol gals shoot 80,..  gee some of these gals used to be good!"
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 09:29:41 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JohnV

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2003, 10:07:40 PM »
Free speech applies to both the person who says, "A" and for the person who says, "Anyone who says 'A' is wrong, rascist and stupid."  If the person who says "A" doesn't want to be criticized for saying "A" perhaps she shouldn't say it or at least think about the backlash that might follow the statement.

Christina Kim is a really nice kid with a father who is one of the more overbearing and annoying parents I've run into anywhere.  He got her suspended for one week and himself for the remainder of the season during my second year on the Futures Tour.  He accused fans of being racist because they didn't cheer for his daughters shots as loudly as they did for non-Asian players, along with other rants at volunteers and staff.  I'm glad that Christina seems to be growing up to be a thoughtful and outspoken person.

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2003, 01:39:31 PM »
Firstly,Mr. Lang an Oriental is a carpet not a person.  The group in question are Asian or Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc.  This is no different from describing a Scot as Scotch.  Scotch, of Course is a drink and a Scot is a nationality.  

Now for the question at hand.  Ms.Stephenson's remarks were ill advised and boorish.  That doesn't mean that they aren't true.  Unfortunately, the message is lost in the hullabaloo over wether the comments were racist.  

The LPGA Tour like the PGA Tours, are businesses.  The players must understand that they can't expect to show up in a city, play for several hundred if not millions of dollars, blow off the local media, expect special treatment, flaunt their sexuality, make stupid comments or any other unacceptable remark and think that their tour will be accepted by the paying customer.  

Jan has it right, she just has her blinders on.  They were giving tickets away at the Dunhill a few weeks ago, I understand they were giving tickets away in Las Vegas this weekend.  The golf tour product just isn't very compelling of late.  The swings are all the same.  The players lack much personality, hell, it looks like the players on the PGA all married the same tall blond woman (is she a clone?).  I think what Ms. Stephenson is reacting to is that the Asian players in particular have even less personality than the others.  

When Sergio came on the scene a few years ago he was young exuberent and new.  Even his waggles, as aggravating as they were, set him apart.  He too has now been sucked into the vortex and lacks any personality.  

Let's face facts.  Give me a nice patch of paint to watch dry.  It is pretty exciting compared to a lot of golf lately.

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2003, 02:50:40 PM »
from today' s Washington Post:

Jan Stephenson: Says Asians are "killing" the LPGA. Hey, it could be worse, Jan: At least your Tour doesn't have any of those darn Cablasians plaguing the PGA.

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2003, 03:16:28 PM »
Unfortunately free speech is being muffled by politcal correctness.  The Press in this country is out of control and loves to jump immediately on anyone who makes a statement that they deem inappropriate.
Are Stephenson's comments accurate?  I don't know but she has the right to make them and shouldn't have to apologize for what she feels is right.
No one has to agree with her and whether one thinks she is right or wrong is immaterial.  She has the right to say it. Period.
Best,
Dave

THuckaby2

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2003, 03:31:05 PM »
Ms. Stephenson most definitely does have the right to say whatever she feels, even in her native Australia (I think).  ;)

The problem arises when one generalizes based on race.  Perhaps this is a downside of today's politically correct society, but it has to be better than the alternative.

See, I'd have to think there are gregarious Asian golfers, as well as stoic.  There are those who speak English whenever possible, and those who don't.  To say "Asians" in general do anything just sells the entire group short, and that's the problem.

So yes, she most definitely does have the RIGHT to make these generalizations.  BUT, if she does so, she shouldn't be surprised if people take offense.  

TH

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2003, 03:48:18 PM »
This is really not the place to begin a forum on the meaning of the First Amendment, but the criticism of Jan Stephenson's remarks does not even border on the suppression of her rights.  The First Amendment was and is intended to create a marketplace of ideas allowing those having differing views to expose and debate those views in the public forum.  It is an underlying assumption that a full exposure of those differing viewpoints will allow the populace to make an informed choice regarding the positions it wishes to support, or conversely, oppose.  No one has sought to stop Stephenson from speaking.  Instead, many have attacked both the form and content of her remarks.  This is precisely what the First Amendment contemplates.  If she is unable or unwilling to defend her positions, then those who she tried to convince of the validity of her remarks will have to judge them without further assistance.  If she did not want public criticism, then she should not have started a public dialogue.  With rights come resposibilities.  She has the right of free speech but she must face up to the reaction.  This is true whether her remarks are deemed to be politically correct or incorrect by any side of the political spectrum.  You may disagree with the reaction of the majority of the press and you may think it is politically motivated.  But do not try to bolster your argument about this issue by suggesting that this type of criticism is an attempt to stifle Stephenson's constitutional rights.  She got all the exposure she asked for and (apparently) more.  The First Amendment argument is a red herring and only serves to trivialize our most fundamental constitutional right.

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2003, 03:52:39 PM »
SL Solow--right on the money.

THuckaby2

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2003, 03:53:37 PM »
Damn well said, Shel.  I ought to confer with you before I speak here... that would just take up WAY to much of your time!   ;D ;D ;D

TH

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2003, 04:50:27 PM »
I've attended three LPGA tourneys and have loved each of them.  Stephenson has something correct and that is those darn chicks are mostly dull and boring.  That's not to say the PGA guys aren't as well because they are.  

I think what Jan is trying to promote is the idea that the LPGA needs a little more pizzaz.  I stop short of saying sex appeal, although I think it is where she went with it.  What's so bad about this?  I don't necessarily think they need to be golfing in bikinis, but they need to get away from the sterotype so eloquantly outlined by Ben Wright.  Sorry Dottie and Meg :P

The Asian golfers are robots, zero personality.  Despite what someone said earlier, I think Grace Park is NICE, however.  Good golfer, nice bod, sports the Nike gear.  But she is also Americanized, big difference.  

Something I want to point out is that not everyone is Jan Stephenson, or Peter Jacobsen, for that matter.  To some people winning is what is important, not being a character or possessing mucho charisma.  Thus, I agree that women's golf could use some more foxes who can play, it's be good for the image and increase public interest, but it's still golf.  The goal is to win, regardless how you look, what you say or what magazine you posed in.  Can you imagine the buzz, however, if some super babe was to come along and start stomping all the girls.  She'd be as big as Tiger, guaranteed!!  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2003, 05:02:37 PM »
 ;D

Cos, lighten up on the semantics, maybe you need to check out the  HISTORY AND PURPOSE OF THE AMERICAN ORIENTAL SOCIETY...hmmm   :o  ;D  ??? 8)  they seem to use the term!

The American Oriental Society is the oldest learned society in the United States devoted to a particular field of scholarship. The Society was founded in 1842, preceded only by such distinguished organizations of general scope as the American Philosophical Society (1743), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (1780), and the American Antiquarian Society (1812). From the beginning its aims have been humanistic. The encouragement of basic research in the languages and literatures of Asia has always been central in its tradition. This tradition has come to include such subjects as philology, literary criticism, textual criticism, paleography, epigraphy, linguistics, biography, archaeology, and the history of the intellectual and imaginative aspects of Oriental civilizations, especially of philosophy, religion, folklore and art. The scope of the Society's purpose is not limited by temporal boundaries: All sincere students of man and his works in Asia, at whatever period of history are welcomed to membership.

I don't deny anyone their free speech.  Could all athletes use some media training and charm school... YES!

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2003, 05:06:32 PM »
One reason why Pak and perhaps other Asians are not available much in the U.S. to "boost their popularity/personality quotient" is that they are huge celebrities in their home countries.  Pak is Tiger Woods in Korea, swamped everywhere she goes and she has dozens of commitments and endorsements.  You know how the Asians are with athletes who succeed in the U.S., such as baseball players - Irabu, Ichiro, Chan Ho Park, etc.  Tons of media and attention.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2003, 05:53:24 PM »
SL Solow,

I think there's a substantial difference in what the framers of the constitution had in mind, the current environment, and the unbridled power of the media today.

If a Jan Stephenson wants to make a comment, irrespective of its merit or lack of merit, she is free to do so.
And, if you want to make counter comments, irrespective of their merit or lack of merit, you are free to do so.

The problem is that neither of you, as individuals, have much of a voice, or perhaps, more importantly, much of an audience.

The media, the medium through which the vast majority of information is distributed, has a powerful voice, and a huge audience, and can print or say pretty much whatever they want, without fear of contradiction or repercussions.
And thus, a great imbalance has occured.

You can mess with a bee, a wasp or a hornet, but you learn at an early age not to mess with a nest, that's too powerful and dangerous of an organization for any prudent person to take on.

And so it is with the media.

Gone, is the independent, healthy "arms length" distance seperating participants from observers.

My concerns relate to their active, not passive or neutral role.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:In defense of Jan Stephenson
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2003, 06:15:48 PM »
Pat Mucci,

Your argument is similar to those made by the critical legal studies adherents in various law schools over the last couple of decades - early on by Duncan Kennedy and Catherine MacKinnon, most famously in the Clinton era by Lani Guinier, I suppose.  It is applied not only to things like speech, but other areas where power of some kind is seen to overwhelm any talk of constitutional rights.  One hole in the argument is the assumption that "the media" all speaks with the same voice - Bill O'Reilly and Al Franken, Fox News and The Nation.  I also think that the idea that media power is new isn't true.  Doesn't the press and the gov't seem to talk like they did in the Vietnam era (especially early on, when a lot of the press bought the administrations bs?).  There was unscrupulous, lousy, and corrupt reporting (and yellow journalism) even in revolutionary times.  Recall the real Orson Welles:  "You provide the story, I'll provide the war."

As to the substance, people used to say that Annika and especially Karrie Webb had less personality than a divot, which was hurting the LPGA, and I don't recall there being anything about it being due to their nationality.

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 06:16:48 PM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.