[MCirba]

The answer to your last question is certainly yes, but that leaves open the question of whether the greens on the Black [or the Castle Course, or any other new course] are good, or whether they are over the top. 

I personally wouldn't make the call on that after one play [with rental clubs and an ugly modern putter, to boot].  There is a lot of really good stuff there; the question is whether there's too much of it, which is partly a matter of taste.  But it was obvious that some people were going to be turned off by the greens.  Lots of people have bitched about the greens contours on the Blue course, and the greens on the Black are certainly wilder than the Blue.

Tom,

Perhaps I should go back to Mackenzie's Sitwell Park but from my perspective in this day of "faster, faster" and subsequently "flatter, flatter" to accommodate them I really enjoyed the audaciousness of the greens on the Black.   

By contrast, I played a course yesterday that shall go unnamed where the greens were literally running at 13 or 14 and they were challenging, of course.   But I also didn't have a putt that broke more than a scant few inches so it was all about speed control.   To me, give me contour or give me death.   Or at least something fun. 

There are definitely places where golfers will be challenged to get down in two on the Black even when on the green.   At that same event you attended someone at my table stated, "I just think you should be able to two-putt from anywhere on a green", to which I took subtle objection saying, yes, but what's wrong with having to make a 15 footer to do so?   

Also, I think what I heard from others is more about the firmness of the greens for approach shots, particularly those set at angles to various lines of approach.   For instance, I was down the left side on #2 and hit a sand wedge to a foot, but watched others down the right side skip across the green.   Me, I like that firmness, but some of it is likely due to the immaturity of the  greens and that will work itself out over time, much as some of the Blue course has softened from my initial visit back in 2013.   

On both the Blue and the Black I love how you can use the ground contours on approach shots to funnel balls to different hole positions.   It's another reason that I enjoy them more than the more prescriptive Red course.

And when all else fails, I recall that a wise man told me recently, "When in doubt, look for the backstops, because you'll usually find one." 

[Tom_Doak]

#18: Red / +1 Red

RED wins 1-up.

Ryan:


That's funny because I agreed with you on pretty much every hole, except for maybe #1, and then I would have had #18 the other way.

[John Kirk]

RED wins 1-up.

I was really surprised by the outcome. Before in depth review, I would have guessed that Red wins by #15 or so. Blue has a great stretch of holes from #2 - #7. Red may even have a better stretch from holes #7 - #11. My favorites are Blue #2 & #6 and Red #7 & #9. Can't wait to go back.

Given 10 rounds, how would you allocate your rounds? Please post your handicap when responding.

5-5 Blue/Red. Blue front nine is a blast to play but red finishes strong. 3 handicap.

My sentiments are similar to Ryan Taylor.

During my one trip to Streamsong, I played the Red course twice, and the Blue course one and a half times, with a second trip around the front nine.  My recollection of the Blue course is a bit fuzzier on holes #9, #14 and #15.

I was tired during the trip, and therefore was incapable of appreciating the courses as much as I should.  Living in a cool climate, it was also difficult to manage the unseasonably hot (mid 80s) and humid weather in mid-January.  I agree with Tom D. and others that the quality of the hole designs is equal to those at the Bandon resort.  It's a very long way to travel for me, so I probably will not return.

If I did return to play fifteen times, I'd want to play the Blue, Black and Red five times each.  I preferred the Red slightly over the Blue.

I loved the audacity of the very long par fours at the Red course, especially the 1st and 15th holes.  In both cases, I felt it would be relatively easy for me to make a bogey, and a real treat to make par.  On the 15th hole the second time around, I mishit driver, then blasted 3-wood as far up the hill as I could, leaving about 105 yards.  Wedged in to about 30 feet, to that beautiful, gentle green set in a bowl.  I just missed the putt.  I thought standing on either the 14th or 15th tee, looking up at that big beautiful uphill monster was ludicrously funny and exciting.  And though the final six holes of the Red course are indeed quite hard, I found them a very compelling stretch.

Keep in mind that the par fives on the Red course aren't super long.  For me, who would still play the 6600 yard tees, there are 7 holes which measure 453 (way, way uphill), 464 (just way uphill), 472 (a little downhill), 505, 508, 508 and 521.  All are arguably half-par holes.

One of my favorite stretches on the Blue course is the third through fifth holes.  I found the tee shot at the third hole, with water all down the left side and a little pot bunker which served as an aiming point (for me), both difficult and engaging.  The fourth hole is sensational, driving out into a flat plain completely bordered by waste sand areas, with a marvelous uphill approach shot to a plateau 20 or so feet above the fairway.  Then on the edge of the plateau, we play the short 5th hole with its long, narrow green that offers a wide variety of length and setup options.

I could go on for a while, but let's cut it short (about to head out).  Among the other holes I liked best at Streamsong are Red #6, #13 and #16, and Blue #11, #16 and #18.

[Michael Whitaker]

Before the Black opened I would have split 10 rounds: 7 Red, 3 Blue. I really enjoy the walk around the Red course and find the Blue a bit too difficult... the golf and the walk.

I have only played the Black once (at this year's Dixie Cup), but based on the one play I would split 10 rounds: 5 Red, 3 Black and 2 Blue. The Black is VERY different from the Red and Blue with its huge greens, but I found it to be quite fun. Maybe I like quirk too much, but I really enjoyed the crater green on 9. The Black reminds me more of playing a links course than either the Red or Blue.

I think the Blue course is appreciated more by good players who can hit the ball appropriate distances in the air. There are a lot of shots on the Blue to targets above your head or over obstacles that must be carried, which puts a premium on proper distance. And, for most of those shots, if you don't carry the ball the proper distance you wind up in an extremely difficult spot. This is the hardest task for average golfers to accomplish consistently.

Too me, the Red seems to not be quite as penal. Missed shots more often than not provide some hope of making a great recovery and saving the hole. I like that style of golf. I remember my first round on the Red with Pete Buczkowski. We had a great game that included numerous recovery chips and pitches by both of us. Fun stuff!

As for the first hole on the Red being too difficult... it is definitely a 4.5 par hole. I've never played any of these courses in a strokeplay event, so I haven't fretted over the par of a given hole. I've always just been focused on whether I could match or best my opponent on the hole. But, I can see where someone with a card & pencil in their hand would be freaked out by #1 Red. It is a very tough four for the average golfer... but, as Tom Doak has said many times... a par four hole doesn't have to be designed for two shots and two putts. 

[Mike Baillie]

Can only compare Red and Blue.  Both excellent courses by likely the 2 best golf course architect firms the last 20 years, perhaps the last 80!  Each has a few wonderful par 4.5 holes - #18 Blue my fav.

I prefer the Blue despite as commented here a more difficult walk.  Why?:
- better greens from the standpoint of the approach and the putting
- firmer & faster (on our fall '15 trip, the Red got drenched before & during our rounds, even lost part of a green)
- options of play: shots up in the air preferred at times yet ground game very applicable often
- overall more fun

Similar to Tom's view of Ryan's match, I too would have had #1 with Blue slightly and most certainly #18.  Two Up, in my view.

Need to see Black soon as well.

[Sean_A]

I've struggled with the yips all year and I didn't 3 putt a single green on the Black.


I also birdied 2, 5, 17, and just missed a few others by a hair.  Played well and shot 77.


I have to wonder if The Old Course was opened in 2017 if we wouldn't be bitching about the huge, over the top greens, particularly on a windy site?

The answer to your last question is certainly yes, but that leaves open the question of whether the greens on the Black [or the Castle Course, or any other new course] are good, or whether they are over the top. 

I think the Castle Course is a different issue.  It is the approaching which is the real problem given the windy conditions.  Too many greens force golfers to put the ball in the air where disaster lurks and pros thrive. Though to be fair, I think the greens are well toned down from the opening date (thought they were still harsh when I was there...so harsh I don't want to go back...and this is the only course I would accuse of this that I have played). It is curious then that #2 is slapped harder for its consistently unfriendly greens for approaching. Granted, the wind isn't what one would expect as on a cliff above St Andrews, but they are still damn difficult greens to approach.

Ciao

[Ryan Taylor]

#18: Red / +1 Red

RED wins 1-up.

Ryan:


That's funny because I agreed with you on pretty much every hole, except for maybe #1, and then I would have had #18 the other way.

Tom:

#18 was more or less a toss up for me. I prefer Par 5 finishes and that may have swayed my vote. Both are awesome golf courses with their own personality. I forgot how good Blue #9 was until I reviewed. What would you rank a hybrid SS course that consisted of Blue #1 - #6 and Red #7 - #18?

[Jerry Kluger]

I have not played the Black and played the Red and Blue a few years ago so my recollection isn't that clear but I will give a couple of observations. 


With respect to the Blue I didn't like climbing up the hill to the first tee - it isn't the tee shot that I didn't care for rather it was the walk up from the front side - it would have been better if you walked up from the back somewhat like number 1 at Ballyneal.  The course was terrific although I found 18 so difficult that I wondered where there might be a place you could hit your drive to get enough roll out and not have an extremely long second shot.


The Red was fun and my recollection was that there were quite a few short holes and quite a few long holes. I did not like the 18th as I didn't have the length to hit the green in 2 but it was not very interesting as a 3 shot hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

With respect to the Blue I didn't like climbing up the hill to the first tee - it isn't the tee shot that I didn't care for rather it was the walk up from the front side - it would have been better if you walked up from the back somewhat like number 1 at Ballyneal.

Speaking of that, when I finished practice putting and asked where I might find my caddie I was pointed to the first tee on the Blue. As you might imagine seeing my fat ass carry my own bag up that hill brought joy to many a stranger.

[Tom_Doak]

With respect to the Blue I didn't like climbing up the hill to the first tee - it would have been better if you walked up from the back somewhat like number 1 at Ballyneal.  The course was terrific although I found 18 so difficult that I wondered where there might be a place you could hit your drive to get enough roll out and not have an extremely long second shot.

Jerry:


Some stairs up the back side of the hill are on our to-do list.  I walked up that way to get to the tee three weeks ago, and when I got to the top Kyle Harris was there, asking why we hadn't built stairs up that side.  I'd actually assumed they would shuttle people up to the first tee with carts, but since they don't, a more gradual stairs would be better [and safer].


On #18 we probably just should have pushed the middle tees a bit further forward.  I was concerned about people driving over the hill into the group in front still waiting to hit their second shots; downwind, I have hit it over the hill once or twice myself, so it's very doable.

[Thomas Dai]

Does someone have a map they could post showing the routing of all 3 courses (ie 1 map showing all 3 courses)?


Is there enough space for a 4th etc course?


Also, given that Mosaic etc have quite a few mining operations in that general area, any talk of courses on other such sites once mining is worked-out/no longer economical?


Atb

[Joe Bausch]

Does someone have a map they could post showing the routing of all 3 courses (ie 1 map showing all 3 courses)?

Give me some time and I'll put one together (assuming Google Earth has visited that area since the Black was built!).

[Steve Lang]

   They could easily leave a cart or two at bottom of hill so folks can self-shuttle themselves... Its easier anyway to leave your clubs at bottom of hill and just hike up to #1 Blue tee with one.  Why would anyone really want to carry a bag up front of hill stairs?

[Tom_Doak]

  They could easily leave a cart or two at bottom of hill so folks can self-shuttle themselves... Its easier anyway to leave your clubs at bottom of hill and just hike up to #1 Blue tee with one.  Why would anyone really want to carry a bag up front of hill stairs?

My caddie was already up there

[Steve Lang]

Tom, I have to ask... did he help you read the greens ??


HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[John Kirk]

Tom, I have to ask... did he help you read the greens ??


HAPPY NEW YEAR!

That's pretty funny.

Happy New Year to you, Steve, and to all enthusiasts of golf course design and maintenance.

[Mark_Fine]

First of all Happy New Year to all!


I don't want to divert this thread but a better question might have been - What distinguishes the three courses from one another at Streamsong and makes them truly unique?  I have only played the Red and the Blue once each so far and I have a similar feeling to John K in that they are both great and most of the holes could very easily fit on one course or the other.  I was really hoping the Black would be more unique and distinguish itself from the others.  Maybe it does, haven't played it yet.  If it doesn't, you might as well just flip a coin. 


C&C, Doak and Hanse all have similar design philosophies.  I wonder what would have happened on that site if you would have had three different architects with very different styles?  Maybe they would have screwed it up, we will never know but as of now at least the Red and the Blue are quite similar. 


Note: I am sure if you played them all a lot (very few golfers will) the differences in each course would show themselves as is always the case with great golf courses.  But for the average golfer/resort guest looking to checkoff Streamsong on their bucket list or who visit once every few years, they could get lost on the Red and end up on the Blue and not know they changed courses.  Not sure if that is a good thing or not?  Regardless the Red and the Blue are both 7.5-8.5 on the Doak scale for me.  Anxious to see the Black.


Mark

[Ryan Taylor]

On both the Blue and the Black I love how you can use the ground contours on approach shots to funnel balls to different hole positions. It's another reason that I enjoy them more than the more prescriptive Red course.

Very well said.

[MCirba]

On both the Blue and the Black I love how you can use the ground contours on approach shots to funnel balls to different hole positions. It's another reason that I enjoy them more than the more prescriptive Red course.

Very well said.

Thanks, Ryan.   

I also think there are very few places on Black and Blue where you can lose a ball where you can go through a sleeve on the Red by the 4th tee.   

[Jay Mickle]

 Having played each course only one time I would choose Black, Red and Blue in that order.  Multiple plays could possibly change that.  With two excellent courses already on the ground the real challenge on the Black was to create something different. I believe that the bold green complexes achieved that by elevating the smile factor (at least for me).

[Mark_Fine]

Jay,
Is the Black that unique compared to the other two?  I hope you are right as I have not played that one.  Also are the greens that bold compared to The Blue? 

[Lou_Duran]

Does someone have a map they could post showing the routing of all 3 courses (ie 1 map showing all 3 courses)?

Is there enough space for a 4th etc course?

http://www.streamsongresort.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Streamsong-Black-Map.jpg

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/streamsongred/aerial.htm

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/streamsongblue/aerial.htm

From all appearances, Mosaic has enough room to build many more courses on its 16k acres in the area. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm playing Streamsong (Blue) on Monday, the 15th. Unfortunately for me, that's the first day their higher rates kick in. We're taking a caddie. Right now, it's just a twosome, but I'm going to have to film some "playing lesson" type video during the round for some PGA crap. 

I can't vote as I've not played any of them yet, but I'm glad to see Blue get so many votes.

[Jay Mickle]

Jay,
Is the Black that unique compared to the other two?  I hope you are right as I have not played that one.  Also are the greens that bold compared to The Blue?

The Black is certainly an animal onto itself punctuated by its very bold green complexes. The greens are large (over 10000 sq. ft) with closely mown area extending well beyond.  Punctuated with mounds and swales they can be either inviting or off putting, a certain source of controversy between those who view them as a wonderful ground game opportunity and those who will contend that  aerial approaches will be unfairly punished.

[Keith Phillips]

Thanks for posting the aerials, Lou!  I've never been to Streamsong so take this comment for what it's worth - purely from the aerial the Red's front nine looks brutally penal - water in play on 6 of the first 7 tee shots.  I've played and loved seven C&C courses (Hidden Creek, Chechessee, Colorado, Friar's Head, Talking Stick, Dormie, Bandon Trails) but the Red looks like it has potential to put me in a bad mood!

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