Streamsong: Which Course Do You Like Best, and Why?

[Tom_Doak]

Please just pick one of the three courses, and give your reasons for favoring it - preferably without denigrating the other courses.


I'll start.  Keeping my own work out of it , I will express a preference for the Red over the Black.  Of course, I know the Red course better; I helped to lay it out, as the two courses were routed together to make 36 holes out of Bill's original attempts to route 18 holes on the site.  So I have to take some of the blame for the long stretch of 10-12 Red, which was necessitated in order to get around the end of the Blue course and get 36 holes into the site.


What I like about the Red course is that there are some truly original holes, and that Bill and Ben were less happy to settle back into their comfort zone when they had a hole they didn't know what to do with.  Red #9 is the epitome of that -- that green was emphatically NOT there to begin with, and I don't know where Bill came up with the idea for it, but it's spectacular. 


Red #8 is another true original -- it wasn't even in the original plan, but Bill was unhappy with the walk from #7 green to #9 tee and he didn't want to make #9 longer, so he removed a short hole between #2 and 3 and managed to make a diabolical short hole where there was going to be that long walk.  There are some combinations of tee and hole location that just shouldn't be put together here, and there's occasionally an impossible shot around the green, but it's only 110 yards so you should not have left yourself with that.


Even Red #5, a water hole of the kind Bill and I generally try to avoid, is a really neat hole, thanks to the contour at the front left of the green which complicates a shot from the safe side of the fairway, or almost any recovery after a bail-out second shot.  What you guys don't know is that nearly all of that fairway was part of the lake when we first saw the ground ... there were a lot of mounds right along the edge of the lake that Bill liked because they would shield the view of all the open ground to the west, so he filled in enough of the lake to get a fairway on the east side of them.  [He could have done it differently, but he liked the native vegetation that had grown on those mounds, so he didn't want to move them and try to get them to look that way again.]


And #17 might be my favorite hole on the course.  They really struggled to get the tee in just the right position for that hole, and they moved around some of the stuff to the right of the fairway more than once, but it's a difficult green if you get out of position to the right, and if you go too far left you can't see it at all.  You can tell that Bill worked for Pete Dye right there.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played the Red and the Blue course once each. I can't think of one hole on either course that wouldn't fit on the other. For this and a myriad of reasons I consider them the same course. The only hole that I recall to specifically not like was the first on the Red. Therefore, I like the Blue more.


Oddly enough the first on the Red was the first hole I played at the resort. It absolutely killed my high handicapped buddies which reminded me of a drawing a bad waiter on a blind date. Is this the most difficult starter in the C&C catalog?

[Tom_Doak]

Oddly enough the first on the Red was the first hole I played at the resort. It absolutely killed my high handicapped buddies which reminded me of a drawing a bad waiter on a blind date. Is this the most difficult starter in the C&C catalog?

That might indeed be the most difficult starting hole they've built.  I never realized how long it was until we went to play it on Opening Day.  But last summer they did build a couple of new tees, filling in where the canal went across to shorten it a bit for regular play.

[John Kavanaugh]

That is great news. Filling in the canal is not something I thought they would do.

[Mike Sweeney]

Have only played Red and Blue, both multiple times, and I prefer the Blue.


The Red is really a tough start, but that stretch in the middle is really good.


Based on pictures and reports, I am guessing Black 4, Blue 4, Red 2 in the 10 Round test of life.


As always, I reserve the right to change my opinion based on my score(s)

[Carl Rogers]

At the Dixie Cup this year, We had one round on each, which for me is not nearly enough to make an assessment.
But to force myself to decide here and now, I would have to say the Blue, only because I felt I did not feel overwhelmed by the shot making requirements (except the approach shot to no.4).


Black number 9 is strange.


With that said, I hope to get over my arthritic problems next year, so I can enjoy the walk, observe more carefully and make a return to Streamsong.  I am a 8 handicap.  I need 1 more round at each to determine how I would split the 10 rounds.

[Joe Bausch]

I've not played the Black course, but I do have two comprehensive photo tours of the Blue and Red:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongBlue/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongRed/index.html

[Bill Brightly]

I've been to SS four times, once since the Black was open. I have a lot of thoughts on the three courses, but TD's comments on Red #1 underscores one of the things I've come to believe about C & C's work: they do not care what the par is on a hole, or what number a hole happens to be on the scorecard. They build the best hole possible and par be damned; and there are plenty of half par holes.


Red #1 is a great, tough, par 4. My guess is that once the clubhouse site was determined and C & C had the land left of the practice green and Doak the right, C & C saw a great hole and refused to to anything to soften it just because is was the starting hole. Seems to me they could have easily shaped a green complex 30 yards shorter to make a "more normal" opening hole with the same walk to Hole #2. I played the hole for the 12th time this past November and made my first par. I was so pleased! And so happy C & C didn't follow the normal script of a "warm handshake."

[Bill Brightly]

For those of you who have played all the courses at Streamsong, I suggest posting your answer to the 10-round question. Given 10 rounds, how would you allocate your rounds? Please post your handicap when responding.


For me it is 5 Blue, 3 Red and 2 Black based on my tastes. But I know I need to play the Black more, so for now, I'd go 3-3-4 until I felt that I've spent as much time on the Black as the other courses.

[Mark Saltzman]

I love the Blue.  Of the three courses at the resort, it is my clear favourite, and even if we add Bandon into the mix, I'd choose only Old Mac ahead of it.  The simple reason is that it has the most shots I want to play over and over and I found its strategy most compelling without having to rely too heavily on full shot penalties.  In a 10 round split at SS, I'd play 6 Blue, 2 Red and 2 Black. 


Honestly, I don't know if I'd even play 2 black.  How has there not been more discussion about those greens? At the start of the round I found the extremely wild contours compelling and in places, like the approach to the 2nd, I found myself wishing for another try with a bit of added knowledge.  But by the end of the round, I'd had enough.  I don't know that I've ever called a set of greens over the top, but I don't know what the thinking was when deciding to include the perimeter contouring as part of the putting surface. 


Are there great holes on the black? The Calamity-esque 5th perhaps? Are there others?  Needless to say, after much anticipation, I was disappointed.

[Tim Passalacqua]

I would give the edge to Red.  (I haven’t played black)  I love both golf courses.  They offer great strategy, width, playing angles, greens, green surrounds, etc.  I just love the land on Red more.  There is something more unique and different about the landforms and I think the feeling of the course stays consistent to the finish.  For me, it stays wild and rugged until you putt out on 18.  I think Red is really special and one of a kind.

[Ari Techner]

I vote for Red.  I have not played Black.  I liked the green complexes on Red better and I felt it was a better walk.  I wasn't a big fan of 7 Blue especially considering it really throws off the walk in the sense that you feel like you are back tracking and I'm never a fan of that. 

[Bill Brightly]

I wasn't a big fan of 7 Blue especially considering it really throws off the walk in the sense that you feel like you are back tracking and I'm never a fan of that.

The walk back to the 8th tee is unfortunate but given the incredible natural setting of the 7th green complex, it is worth the walk, IMO. Put differently, I don't see how you could NOT use that piece of land for a green.

[Cory Lewis]

For those of you who have played all the courses at Streamsong, I suggest posting your answer to the 10-round question. Given 10 rounds, how would you allocate your rounds? Please post your handicap when responding.

I've played all 3 and I would go 6 Blue, 3 Red, 1 Black.  I'm scratch.  To me it's all about the greens.  Blue also has my favorite hole at the complex, short par 4 13th hole.  When we played Black, we played the right green on 13 and my main thought was WTF?

[Mark Saltzman]

For those of you who have played all the courses at Streamsong, I suggest posting your answer to the 10-round question. Given 10 rounds, how would you allocate your rounds? Please post your handicap when responding.

I've played all 3 and I would go 6 Blue, 3 Red, 1 Black.  I'm scratch.  To me it's all about the greens.  Blue also has my favorite hole at the complex, short par 4 13th hole.  When we played Black, we played the right green on 13 and my main thought was WTF?

Cory, I thought the exact same about 13 right green. What a bizarre hole, and impossible putting surface.

[Tom_Doak]

Cory, I thought the exact same about 13 right green. What a bizarre hole, and impossible putting surface.

We played the left green for the GOLFWEEK event, and I thought it was a pretty interesting hole to that green.  After putting out, we walked up over the right green to get to the next tee, and I did a bit of a double-take, wondering how a lot of players would be able to hold it.

[Thomas Dai]

I've not played the Black course, but I do have two comprehensive photo tours of the Blue and Red:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongBlue/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongRed/index.html

Joe,

Thanks for re-linking these very comprehensive photo tour threads.

Florida is unknown to me so I’d be interested to know what time of year you undertook them?

Atb

[jeffwarne]

I really loved many of the holes on the Red, as well as the Blue.


But, like most people,
playing in the winter with minimal reps, the start at the Red is really hard,and a BIP a real possibility on at least the first 2 holes.
While after that it softens a bit, the damage may well have been done to many.


The Blue is a much better wa to start and I advise people visiting to play it first.


I often wonder in general what architects(and developers) are thinking in warm weather resorts-knowing players are rusty and most not in midsummer form.
yet the courses are alost without exception way harder than what they would ever play at home. (Streamsong less so as it at least has width)

[Joe Bausch]

I've not played the Black course, but I do have two comprehensive photo tours of the Blue and Red:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongBlue/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongRed/index.html

Joe,

Thanks for re-linking these very comprehensive photo tour threads.

Florida is unknown to me so I’d be interested to know what time of year you undertook them?

Atb

Jan 2013 and Mar 2014.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Joe, for your always excellent photo tours.
I rely on them to help me make sense of threads like these.

Tom's description of how he and Bill routed 'together' and then JK's initial comment about the holes on one fitting well with those on the other had me re-looking at the photos in a different light/context.

From afar it seems like Tom used every bit of elevation change/undulation/uphills/downhills/sidehills he could on his Par 4s (mostly) and Par 5s, and shaped many (more than usual for him?) holes right to left to accentuate/utilize this even further.
Bill seems to have 'dispersed' these elevations changes/undulations/uphills etc less widely, i.e. on fewer holes, like at the 11th (which seems a very good one); and shaped many (more than usual for him?) holes left to right.

Anyway, just an aside (the initial comments having given me an image of one puzzle with two people working on it). 
But did want to ask those who've played other courses by Tom and Bill whether any/many of their 'signatures' were able to find a home in Florida.         

[Derek_Duncan]

Tom,


Those are fascinating observations and comments about the Red. Thanks for posting your thoughts.


I've only played the Red and Blue, each twice. After the first go-round I like the Blue better because it seemed more joyous with more ground contour and fun peek-a-boo features around the greens.


I actually lost enthusiasm on the first play of the Red course when I hit Red #8, and I didn't understand that whole sequence around the western rim through 13 (still don't think much of the 8th). But when I played it again I came to really admire 9-12 because they're subtly strong and include a couple of good alternate route driving holes, three long par-4's that are difficult in different ways and possess some really good greens (9 and 11 sit up high and 10 is cut into a bowl).


Then 14-17 is simply world-class (18 is attractive but might be too "easy" to be a great finishing hole). Incidentally, I didn't find 17 green very difficult -- I birdied it both days, holing about 110 feet of putts  .


Blue #1 is one of the greatest first holes I've played. The course grips you with the first tee shot and doesn't let up until, for me, the 8th, which my caddie thought was one of the Blue's best holes but didn't do much for me. The 5th is fascinating -- I hope I get to play to the back pin on a future visit. Stunning. And 6 might be the most underrated hole on the property.


Blue loses steam at 9, and 10 seems completely out of character. The caddies in my group did not like 11 but I thought that low, naked green was a cool, gutsy move given the topography and longer shot coming into it.


Blue also has a rousing finish with two of the "biggest" holes around -- 17 and 18 wouldn't be out of place at Rock Creek. But ultimately when I sit back and think of Streamsong, the first holes that pop into my mind are Red's 9-12, so I go Red 6, Blue 4.

[Kalen Braley]

For those not counting at home, so far we have:


Blue: 7
Red: 4
Black: 1


P.S.  Based on the description of those greens on Black, I think I would love it.  I love wild greens!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've seen a few descriptions from people questioning why the perimeter mounding was included as green surface on The Black.


I don't know the course but I'm struggling to understand why it should make a difference if wild stuff on the edge of the green is cut at green height or surround height.


Could someone give an example?

[Mark Saltzman]

Ally, when cut at green height, the possibility of ping-pong on many greens is extremely high.  Add to the fact that balls ending up on the green, on the far side of the contouring, leaves the golfer with the only option of putting (no one is going to chip from a green)... but twice a golfer in my group was on the 'green' with no route to the pin unless they chipped.


In theory, it sounds cool.  I've never seen anything like it.  Thought I would love it, but by the end of the round, I was sick of it.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,


I understand there is the 2 putt expectation, but what is the difference between that and being high sided above a green with a rear pin and the player has no chance of leaving it near the pin?


I guess I don't have an issue with an architect using different ways to tell the player, "you're screwed if you hit it here"