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Sean_A

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Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 02:15:17 PM »

Sean,
 
Thanks as ever for an interesting list...
 

 Sean
 You once accused me of bigging up the courses I've been a member at and while I acknowledge that I'm guilty as charged...
 Niall
 

Afraid I'm joining Niall on this  ::) , so whats wrong with Notts (Hollinwell)? Do I have to stop inviting you for a game as punishment or invite you for more games so you can finally get it? ;D
 

Well, I am guessing there isn't much wrong with Notts if it is top 50  8)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2017, 03:01:52 PM »
The ignorance of Notts in the UK golfing community is depressing.  I'd have called it astonishing but it isn't.  That said, I reckon I could sample a group of keen golfers up here and find that most hadn't heard of Woking.  Or Deal.

Mark - As you know, I have traveled around London for nearly 12 years with Nancy. You would be amazed how many folks have chatted with who have not heard of the town of Deal, much less the golf club!

A few years ago I visited the British Golf Museum in St Andrews. There was an impressive section featuring a special display on "every" course that had ever hosted the Open Championship... including Royal Portrush (this was way before Portrush was chosen to host its second Open). Shockingly, there was no mention of Royal Cinque Ports! It was completely omitted!!! How does something like that happen? The next time I visited RCPGC I told the secretary about my observation, but I have no idea what became of it.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2017, 05:12:41 PM »
Of course, now that I see Sean has rated The Castle Course above Woodhall Spa, his opinions are dead to me.

 :D

Ciao


You know, I saw on another thread yesterday that you would never want to go back and play the Castle Course because the greens were too severe ... I am having a hard time reconciling that with your ranking of the course.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2017, 05:23:57 PM »
Woodhall has many things to recommend it, but it's just so damned flat. The land is flat. The greens are flat. About the only thing that isn't flat are the bunkers. if only they'd been built at the same time as the greens and they could have used the material they excavated to make the greens more interesting.


Tom, I am looking forward to seeing what you and team have done to the place. I believe that heavy duty tree clearance will make a significant difference to the feel of the place -- it already had a very strong stand of heather. But you can't easily create undulation where none exists.


I've never been a fan of flat courses at all.  And Woodhall Spa is not as flat as you remember.  There are a lot of fairways that tilt to one side, especially going out, and a lot of greens that tilt to one side and fall away.  It reminds me a lot of Garden City Golf Club and Walton Heath, in that regard.  But people aren't as inclined to notice because they are mesmerized by the bunkers.


We are still working on the trees, but we made a lot of progress this month!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2017, 08:37:30 PM »
Of course, now that I see Sean has rated The Castle Course above Woodhall Spa, his opinions are dead to me.

 :D

Ciao


You know, I saw on another thread yesterday that you would never want to go back and play the Castle Course because the greens were too severe ... I am having a hard time reconciling that with your ranking of the course.

There are probably 10 courses on the list I am not bothered about playing again.  Not being a big fan of these courses doesn't mean much.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 08:41:44 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2018, 04:58:28 AM »
There are probably 10 courses on the list I am not bothered about playing again.  Not being a big fan of these courses doesn't mean much.


This is an interesting point from Sean.
Indeed there are several big name courses in GB&I that I would be happy not to play again....and some lessors where I would be delighted to tee-off right now given appropriate logistical circumstances.


atb

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2018, 05:18:42 AM »
Happy New Year DT, Sean....


Come on then, I challenge the both of you - start listing the best courses you'd be happy not to play again?


I can't think of any great courses where I wouldn't be delighted to tee it up for another round. But then, the two of you do manage to play a lot more golf than I do.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2018, 05:38:07 AM »
Happy New Year DT, Sean....

Come on then, I challenge the both of you - start listing the best courses you'd be happy not to play again?

Courses on my top 50 best I am not bothered about playing again, but given the right circumstances (basically convenience, right price & someone else organizing) I might....

Kingsbarns
Royal Aberdeen
Renaissance
Trump Aberdeen
Muirfield
Hoylake
Birkdale
Castle Course
Co Louth
Enniscrone

All fine courses for sure, but I keep saying greatness is over-rated  8) .

Happy New Year
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 06:19:16 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2018, 05:43:26 AM »
I played Royal Liverpool the other week with GCAer Derek Holland, his lovely wife, and a mate from RV.


It only cost me £40, I enjoyed the day, the company,  and crossing the place off my list, but I would be quite happy not to return.


I found the course a bit dull in comparison to others on the same coast.





Mark Chaplin

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Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2018, 06:17:18 AM »
Sean when did you last play at Sandwich?
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2018, 06:21:18 AM »
Sean when did you last play at Sandwich?

It is getting close to 3 years ago now.

Happy New Year
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2018, 06:53:54 AM »
Woodhall has many things to recommend it, but it's just so damned flat. The land is flat. The greens are flat. About the only thing that isn't flat are the bunkers. if only they'd been built at the same time as the greens and they could have used the material they excavated to make the greens more interesting.


Tom, I am looking forward to seeing what you and team have done to the place. I believe that heavy duty tree clearance will make a significant difference to the feel of the place -- it already had a very strong stand of heather. But you can't easily create undulation where none exists.


I've never been a fan of flat courses at all.  And Woodhall Spa is not as flat as you remember.  There are a lot of fairways that tilt to one side, especially going out, and a lot of greens that tilt to one side and fall away.  It reminds me a lot of Garden City Golf Club and Walton Heath, in that regard.  But people aren't as inclined to notice because they are mesmerized by the bunkers.


We are still working on the trees, but we made a lot of progress this month!


Tom based on the two of your courses I've seen, greens that mainly "tilt" or are flat don't seem to fit your beliefs.  In Latham's Evolution History it goes through changes hole by hole and (nearly) every green has been altered to take out slopes and humps. Until I hear you put some back, I wont be bothered about a return visit.  Any prospect of the greens getting some "restoration" work?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2018, 08:18:06 AM »
Happy New Year DT, Sean....
Come on then, I challenge the both of you - start listing the best courses you'd be happy not to play again?


Unless someone else were paying, the weather was fine and the round guaranteed to take less than 4 hrs -
RStG
Trumpberry
R Troon
R Lytham
St Enodoc
R Porthcawl
RCD
R Portrush
Portstewert Strand
Ballyb' Old
R Dornoch
Nairn


atb




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2018, 08:17:37 PM »
Woodhall has many things to recommend it, but it's just so damned flat. The land is flat. The greens are flat. About the only thing that isn't flat are the bunkers. if only they'd been built at the same time as the greens and they could have used the material they excavated to make the greens more interesting.


Tom, I am looking forward to seeing what you and team have done to the place. I believe that heavy duty tree clearance will make a significant difference to the feel of the place -- it already had a very strong stand of heather. But you can't easily create undulation where none exists.

I've never been a fan of flat courses at all.  And Woodhall Spa is not as flat as you remember.  There are a lot of fairways that tilt to one side, especially going out, and a lot of greens that tilt to one side and fall away.  It reminds me a lot of Garden City Golf Club and Walton Heath, in that regard.  But people aren't as inclined to notice because they are mesmerized by the bunkers.

We are still working on the trees, but we made a lot of progress this month!

I don't have anything against flat golf so long as it doesn't become too noticeable. While I am sure all supposed "flat courses" move more then memory suggests, but it is hard to argue that Woodhall is anything but a flat course in the big scheme of quality golf....which is waht we are really talking about in this thread.  There is a reason the bunkers really stand-out...there is little else to compete with this feature at Woodhall.  Still, I would and will go back to Woodhall because I like it more than most GCAers, its just not the world beater course of its reputation.  I think Woodhall is a 4th place finisher in a race with Notts, Ganton and Alwoodley.

Happy New Year
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 08:30:03 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2018, 10:57:26 PM »

Sean,
 
Thanks as ever for an interesting list...
 

 Sean
 You once accused me of bigging up the courses I've been a member at and while I acknowledge that I'm guilty as charged...
 Niall
 

Afraid I'm joining Niall on this  ::) [size=78%], so whats wrong with Notts (Hollinwell)? Do I have to stop inviting you for a game as punishment or invite you for more games so you can finally get it? [/size] ;D
 

 My poor beloved Notts -- so close to a Woking or Formby, and yet so far away. They'll be no overnight detour for Notts' sake!
 
[size=78%]
 
Peter however is more than welcome!  ;)
 
[/size]

 I'm considering Notts, Woodhall Spa, Ganton, Alwoodley, Formby, and maybe Silloth on Solway next summer. 
Charles Lund
 
[size=78%]
 
And Charles, let me know when you are thinking of making this trip and I'll see what I can do! And anyone else for that matter who fancies a game at Hollinwell after seeing it make the Gourmet's Choice in vol 1 of Tom Doak's Confidential Guide, dont hesitate to get in touch.
 
[/size]

 Speaking of Notts, I played with a bunch of locals at RAC recently and there were good golfers that never heard of it!  There is a serious marketing issue with Notts.
[size=78%]
 Ciao
 [/size]

 The ignorance of Notts in the UK golfing community is depressing.  I'd have called it astonishing but it isn't.  That said, I reckon I could sample a group of keen golfers up here and find that most hadn't heard of Woking.  Or Deal.
 
It's interesting that you mention the marketing, but is it a serious issue? As Mark says, there are groups of decent golfers all over the country who aside from a few courses they've seen on TV, have no idea of the excellent courses out there in the rest of the country! As can be seen from the responses on this thread, Notts is known and loved. However, the club does acknowledge that marketing is something we could be better at and so a Marketing Sub Committee has been set up accordingly. Now if only there was some way to boost that marketing, by someone on here writing a lengthy post talking positively about the wonderful Notts (Hollinwell)? [size=78%] ;D
[/size]Cheers,James


James,



Notts(Hollinwell) does indeed fly under the radar of most English golfers - even knowledgeable ones who live with a couple of hours or so.


Most serious golf nuts I play with are familiar with Alwoodley, Moortown, Woodhall Spa, Lindrick, and even Sherwood Forest. Yet few have played Notts - their puzzled look when the club is mentioned says it all.


I suspect that the problem is largely down to the name. Is it Notts, or is it Hollinwell? Straight away any brand recognition is diluted by a factor of two.


I see the same phenominum - albeit perhaps to a lesser extent - with Manchester GC and Huddersfield GC. They are generally known as Hopwood and Fixby respectively, and both fine courses suffer relative anonymity largely because of the brand dilution.


It could be argued that Deal and Harlech suffer similarly.


I am sure that a simple change of name to "Hollinwell Golf Club" would eventually eliminate confusion and boost awareness of the club among the wider golfing public immeasurably.


Whether this is politically possible or even desirable within the club is another issue. You might consider retaining the official name in the interests of tradition and heritage but using "Hollinwell Golf Club" as a trading style.




« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 11:26:03 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2018, 03:36:11 AM »
Duncan csn you see any mention on Royal St David’s website of them marketing themselves as Harlech?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 04:20:15 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 06:48:00 AM »
Mark/Duncan

For most of the first century of its existence the Royal St David's Golf Club was referred to, not least by it own members, as 'Harlech' far more than by its extended and dignified moniker: my father and uncle, who numbered about 140 years of membership between them, always referred to 'Harlech', as did e.g. Bernard Darwin and Henry Longhurst when reporting on activities there. In my capacity as the club's historian I have always thought that greater use of the RStD label came with the increased emphasis on national and international marketing amongst golf clubs everywhere, and a sense that the 'royal' brand was especially helpful in this context. The artisan section, which finally expired in the early 1970s, was officially the 'Harlech Town Golf Club'.

There certainly has been confusion in the past: sadly two competitors for the 2009 Ladies Championship failed to register in time and were disqualified, having gone first to the historic city of St David's in Pembrokeshire and reported to the St David's City Golf Club (several times mentioned on this site). Likewise, an official R&A publication of the early 1990s promoting various championships to come put the RStD flag on the Pembrokeshire coast.

But as with Deal, I honestly don't think that any confusion is a big deal, and certainly a less big deal than the absence of the full historic titles of either - both of which are truly fab places for a game of golf.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2018, 07:26:23 AM »
Quite a few GB&I courses/clubs are also known by other names -


Balgownie
Rosses Point
Lossiemouth
Hoylake
Sandwich
Baltray
Donabate
Muirfield
Balmedie! :)
Westward Ho!
and some folk have a tendency to say "St Andrews" when they mean "TOC"
atb


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2018, 05:38:28 AM »
Boonie

Perhaps it is because I didn't grow up with British golf, but to me Notts does seem lost in the cracks with its dual name.  I am not quite sure why that is, but perhaps because it hasn't historically been written about nearly as much as other dual name clubs of the same(ish) class.  I never use Holinwell as it sounds a bit forced to me.  This situation reminds me (to a lesser degree) of being away with golfers for a weekend.  The subject of jazz came up around the dinner table and two folks admitted they had never heard of Miles Davis.  I didn't quite know what to say about that, but it just goes to show that nothing can be taken for granted where name recognition is concerned.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2018, 03:46:45 PM »

When asked about the duel names I always reference The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers who play at Muirfield. If only we had hosted 15 Open Championships...  8)

Yes the two names thing isnt ideal, especially from a "modern" marketing point of view. And joking aside despite a decent heritage of our own we dont have Muirfield's heritage to fall back upon. Most of the clubs that DT lists have a second unofficial name, but do any others have an official club name and a separate course name like Notts (Hollinwell) or HCEG (Muirfield)?


Interestingly the topic has raised its head several times very recently outside of this thread, most recently when a friend asked about whether I would be able to meet with a friend of theirs when they played my club. I replied I'd be delighted to show them around Hollinwell, to which the reply came "oh I'm sorry I thought you were at Notts". A key problem is some people know it as one and some as the other, so if the duel name does dilute the brand by a factor of two, picking one and sticking to it immediately means half of the people wont know it anymore.  ???


At least Bernard Darwin knows what he's talking about in one of his Country Life article's...


"After being too long away I lately went back to Hollinwell, which, as all the golfing world knows, or ought to know, is the course of the Notts Golf Club."


Cheers,


James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2018, 06:42:22 PM »
The Golf House Club?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2018, 06:05:15 AM »
James,


Perhaps if Notts Golf Club has a mind towards considering if it is best marketing itself, it might engage Oxford Golf Consulting to provide some advice.


Of course Dr Mackenzie said the following (my quote may be slightly paraphrasing) in relation to course design, but it holds just as true about PR & marketing: "The cost of engaging a professional is infinitesimal compared with the cost of proceeding without one."

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2018, 06:21:15 AM »

At least Bernard Darwin knows what he's talking about in one of his Country Life article's...

"After being too long away I lately went back to Hollinwell, which, as all the golfing world knows, or ought to know, is the course of the Notts Golf Club."

James

It is telling that Darwin spelled it out for his reader! 

That could be part of the problem.  Usually, the second or nickname is a place (name of actual links which course was built on etc), town etc.  A club with one course and giving it a name based on an object rather than a place is odd...no?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2018, 06:27:47 AM »
I think that the basic issue is that from a sales and marketing point of view Notts is a rubbish name. I mean, it doesn't refer to a very particular location, but to a county with an area of over 800 square miles and a population over a million.  And it's not even the proper name of that county but an abbreviation. It's hardly surprising that it evolved a nickname that refers to a more specific local feature.


But it is what it is; the club is not going to change its name after 130 years, and nor should it. So they just have to make the best of what they have.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2018, 07:05:39 AM »
On the Notts debate abit more info for those interested;


The vast majority of golfers from Nottinghamshire will call it Hollinwell.


I had always assumed this name came about when the club moved from it's original Bulwell (central Nottingham) location to the present one.  So although still Notts Golf Club (I assume short for Nottingham rather than Nottinghamshire so like Notts Forest or Notts County football clubs) they were playing at a different venue and needed to differentiate themselves from the club that formed at their old site now known as Bulwell Forest Golf Club, I believe it was essentially the artisans that took over the old course. This course was also known locally as Nottingham City Golf Club as well as Bulwell Forest when I was growing up as with Notts/Hollinwell....to complicate things there is also a Bulwell Hall GC run by Nottingham City Council often just called Bulwell.

The basic result is it probably should be Notts Golf Club at Hollinwell or something along those lines.


Anyway, I am a huge fan of Hollinwell and think it ranks up there with the vast majority of the Surrey heathlands.

And yes it is surprising how many golfers have never heard of it, though that might be a good thing in many ways.


As for marketing I think Phil Stain, the course managers twitter is excellent;
https://twitter.com/phil19672611

My only suggestion would be that they could do more in working with the other local venues to turn it into more of a destination, plenty of options for a great trip without travelling far at all....Sherwood Forest, Coxmoor, Worksop, Lindrick.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 07:11:55 AM by Tom Kelly »

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