The Yank's 2017 Best 50 GB&I

[Niall C]

Is having different names for courses and clubs purely a GB&I thing ?
 
Personally I think it lends a bit of mystique and an extra layer of interest but then I’m a history buff. To me there is nothing better than being in the know. For years I got confused with Royal Cinque Ports and Deal, and then I was fortunate enough to experience the charm of the club and the wonderful course, and then I was in the know. Likewise, with Sandwich and RSG. 
 
Why change that for marketing purposes ? It puzzles me when clubs “sell the jerseys” just to cater for a few visitors when perhaps their greatest asset is their history, but maybe probably that’s just me ?
 
Niall   

[jeffwarne]

For years I got confused with Royal Cinque Ports and Deal, and then I was fortunate enough to experience the charm of the club and the wonderful course, and then I was in the know. Likewise, with Sandwich and RSG. 
 
Why change that for marketing purposes ? It puzzles me when clubs “sell the jerseys” just to cater for a few visitors when perhaps their greatest asset is their history, but maybe probably that’s just me ?
 
Niall

Niall,
I think many clubs are trying hard not to become "history"

[James Boon]

Thanks all, I'll draft a more considered response shortly, and apologies if this has taken the thread away from Sean's original list...

The vast majority of golfers from Nottinghamshire will call it Hollinwell.

I had always assumed this name came about when the club moved from it's original Bulwell (central Nottingham) location to the present one.  So although still Notts Golf Club (I assume short for Nottingham rather than Nottinghamshire so like Notts Forest or Notts County football clubs) they were playing at a different venue and needed to differentiate themselves from the club that formed at their old site...

As for marketing I think Phil Stain, the course managers twitter is excellent;
https://twitter.com/phil19672611

Tom,

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, its NOTTINGHAM Forest and NOTTS County. Mentions of Notts Forest will generally get you lynched around here! 

As for the clubs name, originally founded in 1887 as the Nottingham Golf Club, in 1893 the club would change its name to the Notts Golf Club. Notts is the acknowledged shortened version of Nottinghamshire and indeed for quite a few years after the name change Nottinghamshire Golf Club was often used in correspondence and appears on medals, buttons and other memorabilia.

On moving to a new course north of the city in 1901, the course adopted the name Hollinwell, after the holy well at one time used by the monks of nearby Newstead Abbey. The club retains the formal name Notts Golf Club (Hollinwell) referencing both the club and the course.

And yes Phil's twitter is excellent. I especially like his recent man made Kingfisher nest on one of our ponds!

Cheers,

James

[Tom Kelly]

James,


Never heard anyone complain about 'Notts' Forest before personally and I grew 5 mins down the road from the ground with a number of long suffering fans as mates.....but to be honest I think most Forest fans just feel sorry for County now! It has always confused me about the County/City Ground naming when they are both the opposite of the Trent to be correct though!

Interesting to note that the club actively changed their name to Nottinghamshire Golf Club though, how did it go down when Cotgrave was renamed 'The Nottinghamshire'? Any issues from your place?


Sorry to keep going off topic.....

[Mark Pearce]

I think most Forest fans just feel sorry for County now!

It's not as if Forest have much to write home about recently!  How many managers in how many years?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Surely it's often just a club vs course thing?


Certainly Royal Aberdeen play over the Balgownie links. Balgownie links was so named before the course was there. It is not nor never has been a second name for the club.


Same with Royal Dublin and Dollymount.


If not the actual name of the links, I guess it just comes about from saying "the links at Deal" etc... "the course at Pulborough"


EDIT: guess I should have read the posts properly. Seems like I'm stating the obvious.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

With reference to golf courses underperforming, you could say that Royal Porthcawl wasn't on the map until quite recently. They're doing a big awareness effort now and getting their name mentioned a lot. I also notice that Conwy are doing a lot to promote themselves following their forthcoming hosting of the Curtis Cup in 2020. It follows the 2018 competition at Quaker Ridge, and precedes the 2022 competition at Merion. Big names, indeed. Conwy is far from that level, but well done them for getting this prestigious event.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark Royal Porthcawl massively over performs now purely because it’s in Wales and events are moved around the home nations for political reasons. With due respect to Conwy I doubt they’d be hosting the Curtis Cup if they were an English or Scottish Club.


We had a greenkeeper from overseas in town a couple of years ago, he wanted to play Deal, Royal Cinque Ports and Royal St George’s. We got him into 2 of 3 and it took a lot of explaining why he couldn’t play all 3. Yes he was English speaking!

[Ben Stephens]

James,


Never heard anyone complain about 'Notts' Forest before personally and I grew 5 mins down the road from the ground with a number of long suffering fans as mates.....but to be honest I think most Forest fans just feel sorry for County now! It has always confused me about the County/City Ground naming when they are both the opposite of the Trent to be correct though!

Interesting to note that the club actively changed their name to Nottinghamshire Golf Club though, how did it go down when Cotgrave was renamed 'The Nottinghamshire'? Any issues from your place?


Sorry to keep going off topic.....

Tom


Delete this before Boony sees this re 'fake' Nottinghamshire Golf Club    lol.

[Philip Gawith]

I have always been a bit puzzled why Rye gets quite as much love as it does (cue outrage, I know!) repeated in this list.


I enjoy the course, but feel there are quite a few ordinary holes (1-3, just after the turn) ..but help me Sean!


Philip

[Sean_A]

I have always been a bit puzzled why Rye gets quite as much love as it does (cue outrage, I know!) repeated in this list.

I enjoy the course, but feel there are quite a few ordinary holes (1-3, just after the turn) ..but help me Sean!

Philip

Wow, I am surprised anybody would say 2 & 3 are ordinary.  I think #2 is an All-England candidate (best short hole on the course)!  Same for 4, 6, 13 & 16....that is 5 total..a very high number of excellent holes imo.  Plus #s 3, 5, 7, 9, 15 & 18 are really good holes.  The only hole I don't like is the 10th and at least it has an awkwardness about it which is intriguing.  The course is also a great walk, usually exhibits f&f conditions, has elements of quirk about it and the rough usually isn't overly harsh.  In my book that is ticking one hell of a lot boxes.  Rye is the sort of place I would like to join.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside: watched on old Shell's WWoG from Portmarnock (no. 34 on the list). Irishman Harry Bradshaw against Billy Casper, the latter still in his prime and the former a little longer in the tooth. I think the world of Billy Casper, but at this venue the young(er) American never had a chance! It was fascinating to watch Mr Bradshaw play that course, and the wind, and the ground and the angles. He putted marvelously (with a hickory shafted blade and a little hooking motion) but just as impressive was how much he got out of his unique swing and low running draws. I can see what Mark R meant (on another thread) about how differently the game was played 50 years ago - and it was so clear how well a course like Portmarnock suited & rewarded that kind of game.

[Thomas Dai]

Just an aside: watched on old Shell's WWoG from Portmarnock (no. 34 on the list). Irishman Harry Bradshaw against Billy Casper, the latter still in his prime and the former a little longer in the tooth. I think the world of Billy Casper, but at this venue the young(er) American never had a chance! It was fascinating to watch Mr Bradshaw play that course, and the wind, and the ground and the angles. He putted marvelously (with a hickory shafted blade and a little hooking motion) but just as impressive was how much he got out of his unique swing and low running draws. I can see what Mark R meant (on another thread) about how differently the game was played 50 years ago - and it was so clear how well a course like Portmarnock suited & rewarded that kind of game.

There's a saying that goes along the lines of "Never play for money against an old guy who uses a hickory putter and carries a 1-iron".
Played a burnt out and beige Aberdovey once with an elderly senior who putted from 40-50 yds out from the green with an old blade putter and was a genius with it. The 'Welsh' (rather than 'Texas') wedge.

And then there's Seve - from 17 secs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kOYdCAcpsA
atb

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I sort of see where you are coming from at Alwoodley but I'd argue that 5, 10, 11 and 18 are all holes that might be considered great.  What it does have is a lot of really, really solid holes and no stinkers, with great variety and lots of interest.  That said, I wouldn't have it ahead of Notts or lots of others on your list, so I'm not sure I'd argue with the ranking.  And changing the 15th green was a crime.

Mark

Except for 18, I think all the holes you mention are very good, but not quite candidates as top drawer.  The hole which has the most potential is 11...if they could clear some trees and vegetation it would make a world of difference.  The green is very difficult so I don't see much point in heavy rough and trees to hinder recovery shots. The hole also feels oppressively claustrophobic.


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

And then there's Seve - from 17 secs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kOYdCAcpsA
atb

Priceless stuff.
Greens that are playable in a high wind-shocker-how novel,
Putts that require a solid strike to even reach the hole, much less go in.
No wonder most people like fast greens-they are easier!
Love it when people talk about how modern equipment allows you to swing hard and the old stuff didn't.
Watch Seve lashing at it and Nicklaus just ripping at it.
Modern equipment disproportionately favors high clubhead speed and has significantly neutered fine wind play spin, curev and trajectory control and imagination (I digress) but the older era most definitely had guys that went all out on their drivers at times. (Johnny Miller)
The difference is they still had to play a second shot that didn't require a 3/4 partial shot with one of their 5 wedges-the new shotmaking I guess ;(   

[Thomas Dai]

Putts that require a solid strike to even reach the hole, much less go in.

An oft forgotten aspect. Ball striking doesn't just matter on full shots.
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

James,



Notts(Hollinwell) does indeed fly under the radar of most English golfers - even knowledgeable ones who live with a couple of hours or so.


Most serious golf nuts I play with are familiar with Alwoodley, Moortown, Woodhall Spa, Lindrick, and even Sherwood Forest. Yet few have played Notts - their puzzled look when the club is mentioned says it all.


I suspect that the problem is largely down to the name. Is it Notts, or is it Hollinwell? Straight away any brand recognition is diluted by a factor of two.


I see the same phenominum - albeit perhaps to a lesser extent - with Manchester GC and Huddersfield GC. They are generally known as Hopwood and Fixby respectively, and both fine courses suffer relative anonymity largely because of the brand dilution.


It could be argued that Deal and Harlech suffer similarly.


I am sure that a simple change of name to "Hollinwell Golf Club" would eventually eliminate confusion and boost awareness of the club among the wider golfing public immeasurably.


Whether this is politically possible or even desirable within the club is another issue. You might consider retaining the official name in the interests of tradition and heritage but using "Hollinwell Golf Club" as a trading style.

I had the great pleasure of visiting Notts today with my son to watch the final round of Open Qualifying. Unfortunately Cavendish's George Bloor didn't quite manage to capture his finest form. Remember the name, though - George is a class act!


Having played the course several times it is one of my very favourites, but watching the Pros play it served to lift the quality of the place in my mind. Somehow watching very good players at close quarters enables one to see the assess the strategy through their eyes and absorb (albeit only temporarily and intellectually) their ability to hit drives 300 yards and 7 irons 200!


I was also struck by how well Notts lends itself to a tournament. So spacious is the property that it could easily accommodate 10,000 - 20,000 spectators and a small tented village. There were probably 3,000 spectators there today and it never felt remotely busy - unless you wanted to get a pint at the clubhouse bar!


I ran into James performing his scoreboard duties and was delighted to learn that the club is to follow my advice in this very thread and rebrand Notts as Hollinwell Golf Club!