News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Sam Ramage

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« on: December 18, 2017, 10:02:44 PM »
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:05:53 PM by Sam Ramage »

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 10:04:45 PM »
Just saw this posted by Darius Oliver.  Hate to see this happen as I really enjoyed Wolf Run.


https://www.ibj.com/articles/66721-owner-of-esteemed


Ken

Sam Ramage

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 10:07:37 PM »
yeah, thanks Ken for posting that link... initially had some issue and the link came out in very small font. fixed now

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 10:30:17 PM »
Wolf Run is the poster child for why you don't let raters vote for courses where they are a member. Considering as a civilian I could join for $700 bucks a year a doubt raters paid diddly. Quite simply the worst course I had played in my life, proven by the fact that I never joined. I would play Tobacco Road with a cue stick in my ass while Apache Stronghold sits on my face before I would make the God awful drive to Wolf Run again.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 06:54:04 AM »
Wow Jaka.  Whatever floats your boat I guess.


Ken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 08:57:56 AM »
Ken,


I could have painted a more pleasant picture and for that I apologize. I have never been able to get my head around why a course celebrated as a top 100 by Golfweek, in a great golf city and priced near zero could not draw a following in the private club membership community. It never passed the smell test.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2017, 09:24:12 AM »
Jaka,

I certainly agree.  Wolf was hard.  The course set up and location geared it toward a very small segment of the golf population.  Without the amenities for the "rest of the family" or a course kids and women really couldn't play from the tees it's a tough sell at home.

I was really marveling at the visual you created.

Ken

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2017, 11:01:57 AM »
I enjoyed the one weekend I spent there, but can't say I was in a hurry to rush back.  It's just a really hard golf course.  Bold strategy to appeal to a national membership by building a course so hard that people wouldn't want to come back for a while after spending a weekend there.  When I leave my club after a long weekend, I'm always a little sad, because I love playing the golf course so much that I can't wait to get back.  Wolf Run seemed to me like going to confession.  The process is uncomfortable, and you probably feel a little better once it's over, but you're not in any hurry to go back. 


That said, I know some people love the place.  Thurman seems to really like it, so it's a bummer for him.  I feel like with a few more plays I could have figured out how to play a few holes more effectively and maybe it would have been more fun. 




ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2017, 01:58:36 PM »
Wolf Run is not just a hard golf course. When I started playing in the UK 18 years ago i developed different kinds of shots and eventually an ability to work the ball. This course has approaches that demand the kind of shot making that only the most skilled of players are likely to pull off; approaches that invite shots that even when properly done are savagely repelled. The consequences are severe short recovery shots when the conditioning even allows you to get a club on the ball properly. Blind hazards are not uncommon. Green movements on some greens are severe in all but about 20 degrees out of 360 with balls impossible to stop on the surface. I also feel , on the creek holes, very confined within the tight corridors.

I mean Smyers delivered an intelligent and effective design just perhaps misguided.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2017, 08:42:00 PM »
Interesting timing. Another Smyers course not far from Wolf Run gets a reprieve from redevelopment, for the time being:
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/12/19/carmel-homebuilder-drops-plans-redevelop-25-m-simon-estate/955552001/


I drive by that estate occasionally. From what I can see of the course from the road it looks like it's being maintained, but it doesn't seem like anyone ever plays it. I've been wrong before though.

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 08:45:22 PM »
And to stick to the original topic, I played Wolf Run once. Way too difficult for me to envision playing much, given what I consider a pretty good slate of publics available in central Indiana. I was most certainly not the target demographic.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 09:25:03 PM »
As I recall the owner directed Smyers to build the most difficult course he could.  It was the epitome of the "hard is good" attitude that was prevalent for some time.  I was always surprised that Golfweek rated it so highly given its criteria.  Nonetheless, Smyers delivered that which was requested.  The lack of playing support seems to indicate that regardless of one's architectural tastes, fun matters in determining the success of a project.  Hopefully these types of results will be instructive to developers and architects.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 09:46:34 PM »
This course must be quite unique. For all his grumpiness, I can't remember JK ever being so critical of a golf course -- any golf course, but especially not one others say is "too difficult". I would've imagined John liking WR, if only as a great place to gamble against flat-bellied youngsters with too much confidence.   
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:48:07 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 08:44:54 AM »
I played there once. Hit the ball great, shot 75 and loved the course. My playing partner, on the other hand, was BIPSIC most of the day. (Ball In Pocket Sulking In Cart) He agrees with Barney.
Mr Hurricane

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 09:31:54 AM »
I played there once. Hit the ball great, shot 75 and loved the course. My playing partner, on the other hand, was BIPSIC most of the day. (Ball In Pocket Sulking In Cart) He agrees with Barney.


BIPSIC ;D ;D ;D

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 09:45:44 AM »
Wolf Run is hard but that fit the mentality of the club to an extent, which I suppose was founded on the principal of being a men's only retreat in the "outskirts" of Indianapolis. No matter how good or bad a golf course is, I would always rather see the open space versus another run of the mill tract housing development with a Chipotle and a Starbucks at it's retail core.
H.P.S.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 10:30:33 AM »
Wolf Run is hard but that fit the mentality of the club to an extent, which I suppose was founded on the principal of being a men's only retreat in the "outskirts" of Indianapolis. No matter how good or bad a golf course is, I would always rather see the open space versus another run of the mill tract housing development with a Chipotle and a Starbucks at it's retail core.


That's the real problem...the course fit the original intent of the club/owner.  But it hasn't been that for a long time.  It's really hard for a private club to make it these days, and it's even harder if you have a very specific target audience. 


There were 12-16 super unique holes out there, one's you couldn't find anywhere else.  The problem was 50% of them were absolutely awful and 50% of them were really good, they were just so hard it was difficult to see the strategic merit in them.


It's a shame Wolf Run is closing though, I'll miss donating balls during my annual visit.  I won't miss the 9th hole.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 12:38:38 PM »
I loved being a national member at Wolf Run. It was two hours from the house, so when my game was on it was easy to make the trip up for a day or for a weekend and humble myself. If my game was off, I could go play down the street instead. I would not have wanted to play Wolf Run on even a weekly basis, but it was fun to visit five or six times a year.


I play with the imagination of Bubba Watson, the power of Lydia Ko, and the skill of Leslie Nielsen. Wolf Run demanded some really difficult shots, and five or six times a round I would pull one off. I will remember forever some of the shots that I and others hit out there. The first time I flew the corner bunker on 5. The 30 handicap friend of mine who carried the creek on 8 from the tips and smiled for the rest of the weekend. Ken's butterfly-with-sore-feet 2nd shot to hold the tabletop on 17. And the list goes on... and gets far less triumphant.


The course's targets were almost always too small. Sometimes comically so. But if you could get past that, there were some really interesting strategic questions that it posed. How valuable is an improved angle of approach on 1? Can you carry the bunkers on 10? Is the tee shot on 8 a driver, 3w, or 60* today?


I liked that you really had to account for what the ball would do after it landed, and a little local knowledge made the targets at least fractionally bigger even if they were still ridiculously small. The par 3s all presented opportunities to hit a shot that fed 20+ feet toward the hole after landing, and I still think 6 is the best redan I've played. I eventually figured out that the secret to a good tee shot on 15, for me, was to hit about a 200 yard-carry punch-draw with a driver that caught the downslope and fed down to the very end of the fairway, leaving just a short iron in. I could hit that shot... sometimes.


Of course, I'd often screw it up and find myself out in 17's corridor with no idea what to do next. But I was a wildly inconsistent golfer who was used to being in positions that no one else had ever visited. I'm used to searching for lost balls and hitting out of the woods and occasionally looking like I've never played golf before. For me, a bad day striking the ball at Wolf Run could be chalked up to "I didn't play well, and the course is really hard."


When I think of reasons to quit golf, I don't think about the fact that I shot 105 in the club championship at Wolf Run a few years back. I had company! And we took solace in the fact that we hung in and finished the round when we could have walked off on 10, thrown our car keys at a 12 year old cart boy, and yelled at the bar staff to get us a sandwich to go. Because Wolf Run did that to people too...


When I think of reasons to quit golf, I think instead about things like the fact that I missed the fairway on 13 at Ballyneal during one of the better rounds I've ever played. Even a good player can look like a hacker at Wolf Run, but only shitty golfers hit in the native on 13 at Ballyneal while playing their best.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:47:24 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 01:02:12 PM »
When I think of reasons to quit golf, I don't think about the fact that I shot 105 in the club championship at Wolf Run a few years back. I had company! And we took solace in the fact that we hung in and finished the round when we could have walked off on 10, thrown our car keys at a 12 year old cart boy, and yelled at the bar staff to get us a sandwich to go. Because Wolf Run did that to people too...


Wow, a person would really have to be a self-absorbed a$$hole to act like that in an organized event for midwestern members of a golf architecture group...or in the middle of closing a really big deal.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 01:12:12 PM »
When I think of reasons to quit golf, I don't think about the fact that I shot 105 in the club championship at Wolf Run a few years back. I had company! And we took solace in the fact that we hung in and finished the round when we could have walked off on 10, thrown our car keys at a 12 year old cart boy, and yelled at the bar staff to get us a sandwich to go. Because Wolf Run did that to people too...
Wow, a person would really have to be a self-absorbed a$$hole to act like that in an organized event for midwestern members of a golf architecture group...or in the middle of closing a really big deal.
I think he was just providing a hypothetical.  Nobody would do that in real life.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Run rezoning proposal
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »
Two plays of Wolf Run.  First at age 28, played well and had relatively fond memories years later.  BUT a friend remembered that I had told him that it was the hardest golf course I had ever played.  Returned at age 48 with 3 friends.  All had a long, difficult round with very few highlights and a lot of frustration.  I am sorry that those who love this course will suffer its loss, but I would never return if offered.


Bart