Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)

[Tim Rooney]

Apologize for the 'font' exercise---Old Man(me).
Camargo had some interesting holes, but the course featured the largest greens I've ever played, rendering more a putting game.
Sand Ridge unrated below Denison is ridiculous.Denison now has the finest greens in fifty years, with a scheduled renovation within the next 3-5 years----course before Kidwell renovation was much better.
Did not use your "S....."word.Just an opinion.
Merry Christmas!!

[noonan]

With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.

Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring?  What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?

Personally, I have NCR ahead of Springfield, but not by much.  NCR had quite a wide distribution of ratings.  Seems to be a polarizing course.

It has been a few years since I played Springfield. Many of the par 4s down on the flatter part of the course were just uninspiring.


NCR just does not have any real weak holes with the exception of 5 and 14. 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 16 are all strong holes.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I don't have a lot of experience with the OH courses.  I've played 6 of the courses on the list.  3 were courses I considered joining and ended up at 1 of them.  Obviously I think my home course is ranked too low.      On the other end of the spectrum I've played Firestone N. a few times and like it less each time I play, so don't really get how it is included on lists like this.  The first hole is my least favorite hole on the property.  I'd rather play the West course for sure.

The other thing I realize is people are clearly much better at networking than I am as it amazes me how many people come through and play courses I live right next to but haven't played.

NCR just does not have any real weak holes with the exception of 5 and 14. 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 16 are all strong holes.

Just like opinions on courses vary, opinions on holes vary.  14 is one of my favorite holes on the course.  It's a hole I stand on the tee and think it's a birdie hole but I usually walk away with bogey or worse.  Every shot brings a decision on what to do and I usually play the part of the sucker.

My least favorite hole is 1.

As Josh said NCR is a course that will dole out punishment for errant shots.  It was built in the penal school of design, if you hit an errant shot your score will reflect that.  That being said it's not a mindless course.  There are lots of places where you have options on the tee as well as into the greens.  The greens are no cake walk either and I've managed to three putt every hole out there.

[Criss Titschinger]

When I turned in my scores, I told Ben that Coldstream was going to be the most notable course NOT represented due to no one having played it. I suspect it would crack the top 40.

I had NCR South over Springfield, but only by a hair.

The private courses in Ohio are really that much better than the public courses. Fowlers Mill is the lone exception in my book. Sleepy Hollow could be really good with some touch-ups and cart path removal. I still need to see Manakiki. The Quarry has a view dull holes that keep it from being special, but it’s solid regardless.

I think the majority of the participants were from Central and Northern Ohio, and the list may reflect that. However, I have no argument the best golf in the state is also up that way. I was glad to see Dayton represented well. Cincinnati was not well represented when I got the list. Carmago, Hyde Park, and Stonelick were accounted for, but I felt a couple with top 40 potential that I’ve played were missing: Clovernook and Maketewah. The former (Langford/Moreau) is the best course in the city I’ve played (have not played Camargo, Coldstream, Hyde Park, or TPC River’s Bend). Clovernook could be even better if they more funds to spend. Mak is much improved after their bunker renovation.

As far as Miami View (not to be be confused with Miami Valley), I’m a member there and I didn’t include it on the list. I love playing out of there. No first hole scares me anymore because of the 477 yard par 4 1st I play all the time. I tell guests be happy with a 10 after the first two holes, because there plenty of birdie holes after that. The course has great variety and land variation. It’s one of the rare golf-only clubs in Cincinnati. We spend the majority of our money on the golf course, and that’s the way I like it. I don’t think it’s not worth traveling for, but I’m happy to host if people want to check it out. We recently approved some minor renovations (Hurdzan Group) that will be taking place over the course of 2018. We also just hired a new superintendent who worked with at Scioto when Hurdzan was doing work out there. I’m excited to see what he can do with the View.

I haven’t seen Glenview in over 10 years, but I can’t see it breaking the top 40. I prefer Sharon Woods over Glenview, but let’s be honest: Stonelick is the only public in SW Ohio worth even considering for top 40.

I haven’t played in NE Ohio since 2015, and that needs to change next year. I must find a way to get, if nothing else, Brookside Canton in my 2018 rota.

[Ari Techner]

Good list guys thanks for taking the time to do that. 


I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.


I really need to play Brookside. 


LOVE Moraine.

[Ronald Montesano]

I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.

Ari,

I loved my time on the course, as I had the chance to photograph it for 2 consecutive days (did not play.) I wonder which holes you think are the weak ones, or is it a weakness that can not be ascribed to individual holes?

[Ari Techner]

I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9.  I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there.  Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors.  It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.

Ari,

I loved my time on the course, as I had the chance to photograph it for 2 consecutive days (did not play.) I wonder which holes you think are the weak ones, or is it a weakness that can not be ascribed to individual holes?

I thought it had an amazing set of par 3s but the 5s are average and same with a few of the 4s.  Great routing, better than average piece of land.  Cool old school Raynor greens.  Weak is definitely not the right word but a 9 ranking is an extremely high standard.  I don't think the course is up to that high of a standard.  Its top 10 MacRaynor but not top 5 and I'd have it closer to a high 7 than a 9.  Which still makes it a fantastic place to spend a day playing golf.

[ward peyronnin]

Ari I will agree with you. 1 and 18 are not inspiring holes with not much to make them memorable bookends; not bad but not nineworthy rating. Also the greens are impressive  like aircraft carriers are or they remind me of the PreColumbian Indian mounds we have in the Ohio Valley and internal movement is not in keeping with inspired MacRaynor execution. The threes are good but I have definitely seen better Redans and Shorts.

It is good but nowhere near a nine; Morraine tops it in my book.

[Joe Bausch]

Ohio golf is strong as this list confirms.

I've played 3 of the 40 and enjoyed each very much.  I think Maketewah may be a bit underrated.

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Maketewah/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Inverness/index.html

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Sylvania/index.html

[Tom_Doak]

I'm quite fond of Camargo, but I'm surprised it is so far ahead of everything else in this poll.  Your voters don't seem to have followed tradition at other spots on the list.  I guess it's the only Raynor course in Ohio so that makes it more distinct.  It is a great piece of ground for golf.


I was also a bit surprised that the quality of the list falls off so hard after the top 15 or so.  Everyone always points out how many great courses Columbus has, I think Cleveland's courses are underrated, and there are other cities to chime in as well, yet when you put them all together I'm surprised it doesn't add up to more.

[Phil McDade]

Top 10 or so looks about right to me -- I might have the Canterbury over Muirfield, but that's my bias (old trumps new).


Mayfield is #25 -- a course that few ever discuss here on GCA, yet has all of the attributes that GCAers usually fall over themselves exulting: quirky design by relatively obscure architect, overshadowed by neighbors (Canterbury, TCC, Kirtland et al), once cited by Vardon (according to the late Tom MacWood) as his favorite course  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,149.msg1376091.html#msg1376091)


Has anyone played it or seen it?

[Brian Finn]

Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio.  In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts.  You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem. 

1.  Camargo 8.93
2.  Brookside (Canton) 8.13
3.  The Golf Club 8.11
4.  Moraine 8.01
5.  Kirtland 7.87
6.  The Country Club 7.60
7.  Muirfield Village 7.41
8.  Canterbury 7.28
9.  Inverness 7.21
10. Pepper Pike Club 7.18
11. Scioto 7.03
12. Springfield 6.82
13. Double Eagle 6.67
14. Fowlers Mill 6.59
15. Hyde Park 6.54
16. NCR S 6.53
17. Sleepy Hollow 6.50
18. Firestone S 6.49
19. Elyria 6.45
20. Sugarbush 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.23
22. Westbrook 6.17
23. Urbana 6.13
24. Brookside (Columbus) 6.12
25. Mayfield CC 6.04
26. Maketewah 5.98
27. Shaker Heights 5.97
28. Sylvania CC 5.94
29. Denison (Granville) 5.91
30. Firestone N 5.83
31. Congress Lake 5.83
32. Pinnacle 5.82
33. Manakiki 5.80
34. Stonelick Hills 5.80
35. Columbus CC 5.78
36. Wedgewood 5.72
37. Hickory Hills 5.70
38. Clovernook 5.68
39. Lakewood 5.65
40. Miami Valley 5.60

Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best. 

I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list.  Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented?  Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view?  Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.

Saving original post #1 & revising list in opening post to reflect several more ballots.

[Joe Zucker]

I’ve played about half the courses on the list (5 of the top 10) and contributed my rankings.  For the most part, I agree with the group based on the courses I have played.  I also strongly agree with the sentiment that after the top 12, we’re really splitting hairs. 

There are only three quality publics in Cleveland worth playing: Fowlers, Sleepy Hollow, and Manikiki.  All three could have their own thread on merits and deficiencies.   Unfortunately, Fowlers is the only one in great shape, with the park district owning the other two. I think it is well noted that Sleepy and Manakiki have the bones to be great courses, but it’s unlikely to ever happen.  There is no shortage of good golf in Ohio, but most of it is private like everywhere else.
 
Phil, I’ve played Mayfield a few times and agree that is a fun course. I think it falls into a group with Shaker just below the premier east side clubs.  There are several really good and interesting holes on both courses, but also several mundane and boring ones.  Accacia and Oakwood could be in that group too, before they became shopping malls a few years back.

[Pete Garvey]

How is Cincinnati CC not on the list?  1895 Robert White design. 

[Tim Rooney]

Pete,is this course similar to Hyde Park CC,short .tight and sporty?

[BHoover]

How is Cincinnati CC not on the list?  1895 Robert White design.

Probably due to lack of play by those of us who contributed to the list.

[Pete Garvey]

Pete,is this course similar to Hyde Park CC,short .tight and sporty?

Tim, very tight and very hilly.  A great test for wedges!

[Tom Allen]

Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.

Find us enough people that have played it and are willing to submit a rating, and it will be added.

I've played it a lot, enjoy it, and would add my vote to the list.  Brian, where can I find the poll/etc.?  Sorry I missed it earlier this month, or would have contributed my ratings for what they are worth (which is not a lot). 

[Criss Titschinger]

How is Cincinnati CC not on the list?  1895 Robert White design.

Probably due to lack of play by those of us who contributed to the list.

Cincinnati CC wasn't on the list before I got to it. However, that was true of a number of courses in town. It's a fun, quirky old course, and I certainly wouldn't pass down an invitation to play it again. That being said, there at least a handful of courses in town I'd rather play, and I don't think it's quite top 40 in Ohio status.

I will say I think it has a great set of par 3's, and could be the best set in town outside Camargo's. I do prefer the old 8th, before they flipped that hole 90 degrees.

[Pete Garvey]

How is Cincinnati CC not on the list?  1895 Robert White design.

Probably due to lack of play by those of us who contributed to the list.

Cincinnati CC wasn't on the list before I got to it. However, that was true of a number of courses in town. It's a fun, quirky old course, and I certainly wouldn't pass down an invitation to play it again. That being said, there at least a handful of courses in town I'd rather play, and I don't think it's quite top 40 in Ohio status.


I will say I think it has a great set of par 3's, and could be the best set in town outside Camargo's. I do prefer the old 8th, before they flipped that hole 90 degrees.

I couldn't agree more about the Par 3's and old 8 was better!

[BCowan]

Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio.  In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts.  You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem. 

          Notes: 
          a. Below list revised (December 12th) to include additional voters
          b. Original list (December 7th) saved in reply #36
          c.  Added:  Portage CC (#20), Sand Ridge (#36)
          d. Dropped:  Wedgewood, Miami Valley

1.  Camargo 8.76
2.  The Golf Club 8.25
3.  Brookside (Canton) 8.15
4.  Moraine 8.03
5.  Kirtland 7.96
6.  The Country Club 7.64
7.  Muirfield Village 7.59
8.  Inverness 7.34
9.  Canterbury 7.29
10. Scioto 7.19
11. Pepper Pike Club 7.14
12. Springfield 6.86
13. Double Eagle 6.80
14. NCR S 6.67
15. Fowlers Mill 6.55
16. Sleepy Hollow 6.48
17. Hyde Park 6.45
18. Elyria 6.43
19. Firestone S 6.40
20. Portage CC 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.17
22. Brookside (Columbus) 6.16
23. Mayfield CC 6.13
24. Westbrook 6.10
25. Sugarbush 6.08
26. Sylvania CC 5.98
27. Urbana 5.98
28. Maketewah 5.98
29. Congress Lake 5.91
30. Denison (Granville) 5.88
31. Firestone N 5.81
32. Manakiki 5.79
33. Shaker Heights 5.79
34. Columbus CC 5.78
35. Pinnacle 5.76
36. Sand Ridge 5.73
37. Lakewood 5.72
38. Hickory Hills 5.70
39. Clovernook 5.68
40. Stonelick Hills 5.65

Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best. 

I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list.  Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented?  Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view?  Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.

Brian,


   This list turned out very good.  Ohio has such a deep bench.  I really want to play Portage, a Langford track in Akron.  There are so many gems that I haven't played but heard good things about.  Cleveland might possibly be the most underrated Golf City ahead of Detroit in the US.  I hope we can finish this list with course write ups.?.?


   Looking forward to playing The Country Club, Pepper Pike, Springfield, Miami Valley, NCR, Fowler's Mill, Sleepy Hollow, Manakiki, and Columbus CC this year for the first time! 

[Jeff Schley]

A friend of mine played both Firestone courses last year and he said it wasn't anything special.  I guess you look at the rankings here and I guess I can see why.  For a course that has regularly been used for the PGA tour I think his expectation maybe was Augusta National I don't know.  I like the course on TV as I have never played.  By contrast he said he would rather play Urbana which I know is a Dye design.  They don't seem to be even close to the same type of courses.

[BHoover]

A friend of mine played both Firestone courses last year and he said it wasn't anything special.  I guess you look at the rankings here and I guess I can see why.  For a course that has regularly been used for the PGA tour I think his expectation maybe was Augusta National I don't know.  I like the course on TV as I have never played.  By contrast he said he would rather play Urbana which I know is a Dye design.  They don't seem to be even close to the same type of courses.

I love playing Firestone.

[Colin Sheehan]

From Ohioan Chris Hunt on courses he has played, whose GCA account has long since been retired, acknowledging that good Ohio golf dwarfs great Ohio golf:


1.  Brookside
1a. Camargo
2.  Golf Club
3   Inverness (new)
4.  Kirtland
5.  Country
6.  Moraine
7.  Canterbury
8.  Mayfield
9.  Pepper Pike
10. Chagrin Valley (a top forty without this Stanley Thompson would be a travesty)
11. Elyria (classic Flynn with Kye Goalby bunkers)
12. Scioto
13. Beechmont
14. Muirfield Village
15. Sleepy Hollow
16. Manakiki (with cart path removal)
17. Fowler's Mill

Just one guy's opinion.

[BCowan]

From Ohioan Chris Hunt on courses he has played, whose GCA account has long since been retired, acknowledging that good Ohio golf dwarfs great Ohio golf:


1.  Brookside
1a. Camargo
2.  Golf Club
3   Inverness (new)
4.  Kirtland
5.  Country
6.  Moraine
7.  Canterbury
8.  Mayfield
9.  Pepper Pike
10. Chagrin Valley (a top forty without this Stanley Thompson would be a travesty)
11. Elyria (classic Flynn with Kye Goalby bunkers)
12. Scioto
13. Beechmont
14. Muirfield Village
15. Sleepy Hollow
16. Manakiki (with cart path removal)
17. Fowler's Mill

Just one guy's opinion.

Colin,
 
   How can your buddy Chris rate the New Inverness when it's not even finished/open?  I think his list is really good except one course.  I really need to get to Elyria and Mayfield. 


my 2 cents,


1. Canton Brookside 8.3
2. Moraine               8.2
3. Inverness            7.6
4. Kirtland               7.3  (Some work there could go up with 2nd play this summer)
5. Scioto                  7
6. The Golf Club       6.5
7. OSU Scarlet         6.2 (Pre JN)
8. Canterbury          6.1  (new work could bump this up)
9. MVGC                  6
10. Sylvania             5.8
11. Double Eagle      5.7
12. Highland Meadows 5.6
13. Tiffin Mohawk        5.5  (Back 9 is a 7.5)
14. Findlay                 5.2
15. Blacklick               5
16. Cook's Creek        5