Golf Rules in Perspective

[Ken Moum]

No....

Either I worded my question poorly or you misunderstood, because everything after "No…" indicate that you should have said "yes."
 [size=78%]Pros are increasingly leaving their balls in place to "help out" their fellow PGA Tour pros when the opposite should be true: they should be protecting the field and marking their ball as they're in a position to assist[/size]
It's not a great thing to see, and it's increasing in its frequency and the brazenness with which players leave balls when they have plenty of time to mark them.

You asked, "Do you mean the "backstopping" that's become more and more common on the PGA Tour traces, in your mind, back to a rule that went away in 1983?"
 
My answer to that specific question was "No," because I don't think the old rule and what they are doing are related in any way, nor does the practice trace back to, a rule that none of these guys ever heard of.
 
For one thing, back then it was a case of a player being able to force their match play OPPONENT to leave a ball where it might help. 
 
What these yahoos are doing is voluntarily leaving a ball where it will help a FELLOW COMPETITOR.
 
The feckers all should be DQed.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The feckers all should be DQed.

I agree. That's what "backstopping" is. They should be protecting the field, and they're doing the opposite.

[Thomas Dai]

Backstopping - an alternative view.
Folks complain about slow play. Players faff around on the greens etc taking ages.
Perhaps the approach to backstopping - or any kind of stopping - should be along the lines of -
"If you're balls near the hole and you don't walk up and mark it quick enough well, tough on you, I'm just gonna play anyway and if my ball hits yours and helps me well, that's tough on you, coz you should play faster."
I sense cutting and pasting coming!
atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Backstopping - an alternative view.
Folks complain about slow play. Players faff around on the greens etc taking ages.
Perhaps the approach to backstopping - or any kind of stopping - should be along the lines of -
"If you're balls near the hole and you don't walk up and mark it quick enough well, tough on you, I'm just gonna play anyway and if my ball hits yours and helps me well, that's tough on you, coz you should play faster."
I sense cutting and pasting coming!

No need.

It's not a matter of "pace of play." It's a matter of protecting the field. A player whose ball is in a position to help another player in stroke play should mark the ball to protect the field.

If they'd mark it in a Ryder Cup match, they should mark it in stroke play.

It's happening more and more. And modern Tour players think it's their RIGHT to play with a ball in a position to backstop them.

[Sean_A]

Backstopping - an alternative view.
Folks complain about slow play. Players faff around on the greens etc taking ages.
Perhaps the approach to backstopping - or any kind of stopping - should be along the lines of -
"If you're balls near the hole and you don't walk up and mark it quick enough well, tough on you, I'm just gonna play anyway and if my ball hits yours and helps me well, that's tough on you, coz you should play faster."
I sense cutting and pasting coming!

No need.

It's not a matter of "pace of play." It's a matter of protecting the field. A player whose ball is in a position to help another player in stroke play should mark the ball to protect the field.

If they'd mark it in a Ryder Cup match, they should mark it in stroke play.

It's happening more and more. And modern Tour players think it's their RIGHT to play with a ball in a position to backstop them.

Another issue well suited for bifurcation.  If some dipshit held up play to walk 50 yards up to a green to mark his ball I wouldn't be impressed.  Thankfully I have yet to see this happen.  I think there is an instinctive distance/situation when one knows if he should be waiting that extra few seconds to see if the other player is making a move to mark the ball.  Mind you...thats all a player will get from me...a few seconds to make a definite move unless his ball is in my way.  In my experience, few players care about backstopping.  Its an issue for proper golfers making a living at the game.

Ciao   

[Thomas Dai]

Backstopping - let the field police things. If you don't walk up quick enough someone else might gain and some slowcoach might even miss the cut (good?!). There might be some finger poking and the odd threat for a while but it'll sort itself out. And caddies could mark balls too.
Lots of possible implications from the timed Golf-6's and next years Austrian Open. A way forward in relation to snooze-fest pace of play....pre-supposing the 'bottle' is there?

atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Another issue well suited for bifurcation.  If some dipshit held up play to walk 50 yards up to a green to mark his ball I wouldn't be impressed.

The rule already takes that into consideration. It’s essentually a rule regarding only greenside shots (the “assist” part). I think it’s 22/3 or something. Another later Decision speaks to it too.

Backstopping - let the field police things.

The field is policing things… in the wrong direction. There’s an increasing wink-wink going on with this among PGA Tour players.

[Lou_Duran]

Have we reached a conclusion on the simplicity, self-evident nature of the rules, and whether there is a need for modification?

Without looking it up, I'd like a reply from non-experts to the two rules questions I posed earlier (and copied below).

Rules question 1, player is on the green lying 2.  His 30' putt is diverted very slightly by a blowing leaf, but the putt still goes in the hole.   He counts his stroke and hits from the next tee.  What did he score on the hole?

Rules question 2, player drives his ball into an unplayable lie just off the fairway in high rough and chooses to take a drop with a one stroke penalty.  He measures three club lengths from the spot, drops the ball and it rolls another club length to the fairway, no closer to the hole.  His fellow competitor suggests that the drop was not made according to the rules, so the player picks up his dropped ball and now aligns the point of his original lie with the flagstick and goes back 20 yards, again dropping the ball in the fairway.  He knocks that ball on the green and two putts from there.  What did he score on the hole?


As to Sean's "dipshit", there is no reason why he would want to walk up 50 yards to mark his own ball, though I've seen a player ask a fellow competitor to mark his (fc's) near the hole that might interfere with the player's subsequent shot from a similar distance.  As long as it is a rare request and doesn't unduly delay play (i.e. he is within his time or in position), he will not be penalized.  Question: what happens if the fc's ball is on the fringe, he marks his ball and throws it to his caddie who proceeds to clean it?  Rules are simple, right?

[Sean_A]

Sweet Lou

Sure a player may want to mark his ball if he thinks it's position may help a competitor.  So far as I know, there is no distance limit on marking a ball on the green...the wording of "just off the green" is very vague...another poorly written decision. Regardless, for the purposes of recreational play...which handicap golf is...speed of play should take precedent.  For folks playing the game for a living I can understand stopping play to mark these balls.   

Ciao   

[RussBaribault]

o

[Jerry Kluger]

I read that waiving the 2 stroke penalty for signing a wrong scorecard will now be a local rule - what's next?


Lou: The first question happened at a recent pro event and the rule is the player must replay the putt and failure to do so I believe is a 2 stroke penalty. I hope that the answer to the second question is that since he did not hit the ball after first improperly taking relief he can redrop again so long as he then properly takes relief - to me it would be no different than when you are asked to move your marker on a green and put your ball back and then remind yourself that you had moved your marker and correct it before you putt.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I read that waiving the 2 stroke penalty for signing a wrong scorecard will now be a local rule - what's next?

It's only a Local Rule because they have no way of "adding" actual rules mid-cycle. They've said it will, unfortunately, be in the 2019 Rules.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou: The first question happened at a recent pro event and the rule is the player must replay the putt and failure to do so I believe is a 2 stroke penalty. I hope that the answer to the second question is that since he did not hit the ball after first improperly taking relief he can redrop again so long as he then properly takes relief - to me it would be no different than when you are asked to move your marker on a green and put your ball back and then remind yourself that you had moved your marker and correct it before you putt.

Thanks Jerry.  You are right on both.

Fall is my favorite season for golf and since I am into fast play, I am sure I've violated 19-1.b. on more than one occasion (in this case, a putt deflected by a blowing leaf must be replayed).  The quirk here is that if the ball was just off the green or it was deflected by a stationary leaf or small branch on the green, play on.  Not too simple or self-evident IMO.  And yes, on one of the tours, a player was penalized two strokes for not replaying the stroke. 

Q.2. is a bit more tricky because the player changes relief options from 28 (c) to (b).  In this case, the player dropped in the wrong place (3 club lengths vs. maximum of 2), and under 20-6, he is not re-dropping, but dropping the ball correctly, so he can change options (from c to b).

Had he dropped the ball within two clubs originally and it rolled more than two clubs from the point where it first struck part of the course, then he would be re-dropping and could not change options (20-2.c.).  Had he re-dropped under option (b) of Rule 28 (after first dropping under c) and played from there, he would have hit from the wrong place and penalized two additional strokes, with a possibility of disqualification if he gained a significant advantage from the bad re-drop and didn't correct it.

Maybe the rules are simple and I am more so.

 

[Pete_Pittock]

I remember a bunch of instances in recent US Opens where backstopping occurred, and there was plenty of time to mark and avoid.


Maybe 25 years ago I was working rules at a US Open qualifier and a USGA official, since retired, saw something like this. He told both players that, if any official saw a repeat, they would be disqualified, and then reported the incident over the radio
while they were still within hearing distance.


Thought I would bring this back up with Justin Thomas tweets and Golf Channel discussions.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Thought I would bring this back up with Justin Thomas tweets and Golf Channel discussions.

And Mike Clayton's own interactions with Jimmy Walker.

[Kyle Harris]

Golf is hard, you should try it sometime. 


Here's a Basketball Rule:

"Traveling:[/size]To start a dribble after establishing a pivot foot, the ball must be released from the player’s hand before his pivot foot leaves the floor or he has committed a traveling violation. A player who receives the ball while moving is allowed a two count rhythm but must release the ball prior to the third step touching the floor. When ending his dribble a player may use a two count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting. A player who fall s to the floor while holding the ball or while coming to a stop may not gain an advantage by rolling on the floor. A player who attempts a shot may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, rim or another player. If a player comes to a stop on the count of one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously, he may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he alights with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor. If a player has one foot on the floor or lands with one foot first to the floor, he may only pivot with that foot. Once that foot is lifted from the floor to shoot or pass it may not return until the ball is released. If a player jumps off one foot on the count of one he may land with both feet simultaneously for count two. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either return to the floor. When a player gathers the ball he may not step consecutively with the same foot, as in a hopping motion."[/color]

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,


Hilarious. 


Probably not coincidence that travelling is the epidemic that plagues basketball at the moment, especially the NBA.  As a former ref at every level up thru high school ball, its really not that difficult to spot violations correctly 90% of the time.  So its nothing short of willful negligence that NBA refs let it go almost every time.