Golf Rules in Perspective

[Sean_A]

Mike,


not a clue what a 'push' is.


Ken,


Simultaneous OB or lost ball maybe pretty rare but not everybody has the control over evert shot that you have Ken But the question stands how do you proceed if both players have lost their tee shot?

Jon

A push is a half.  So far as both guys losing balls...in matchplay this wouldn't be an issue unless the second guy is a moron...all he has to do is putt he ball to win the hole.  Basically, an OOB situation would be a concession.  In medal play, I guess both guys are back to where they started.


A lost ball is a different matter unless the concept is the first person to hit and not find their ball loses the hole.  This would give a whole new dimension to being the longest driver.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for explaining what a push is.


Wow, Sean, you must be a lot better than I remember off the 1st at Goswick or did you deliberately hit it there


Seriously though, the argument put forward just does not hold water. Yes people do stupid things but the idea that no two ball could both lose their ball as the solution to this obvious flaw gives the answer.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Isn't one of the RoG's in relation to matchplay that if two/four opponents agree to waive a RoG then they are both/all DQ'd? Mind you, in club golf who'd know, that is until the rumour mill and the snitches got chatting!
atb

[SL_Solow]

Just wondering how many of those commenting have been to Rules School?  Brings an interesting perspective.

[Rick Lane]

Mike,


not a clue what a 'push' is.


Ken,


Simultaneous OB or lost ball maybe pretty rare but not everybody has the control over evert shot that you have Ken But the question stands how do you proceed if both players have lost their tee shot?

Jon

A push is a half.  So far as both guys losing balls...in matchplay this wouldn't be an issue unless the second guy is a moron...all he has to do is putt he ball to win the hole.  Basically, an OOB situation would be a concession.  In medal play, I guess both guys are back to where they started.


A lost ball is a different matter unless the concept is the first person to hit and not find their ball loses the hole.  This would give a whole new dimension to being the longest driver.

Ciao

Wait, if a player  lost his ball or hit it OB in Match play, he gets to replay the shot with penalty.   I did this once in match play, hit tee ball OB on a par four.   Re-teed hitting 3, and made a 5 to tie the hole. So OOB is not a concession automatically?  Seems as someone said, there would then be risk in hitting first......hmmmm....maybe under the idea of simplified ruels, the person with the honors has the CHOICE to hit first?  Same with the person farthest from the hole?  (logistical issues there)

[Ken Moum]

Wait, if a player  lost his ball or hit it OB in Match play, he gets to replay the shot with penalty.   I did this once in match play, hit tee ball OB on a par four.   Re-teed hitting 3, and made a 5 to tie the hole. So OOB is not a concession automatically?  Seems as someone said, there would then be risk in hitting first......hmmmm....maybe under the idea of simplified ruels, the person with the honors has the CHOICE to hit first?  Same with the person farthest from the hole?  (logistical issues there)

Rick, you have to go back and look at my post about Match Play Madness http://matchplaymadness.com/mpm.txt
 
There only one rule: You hit the ball without touching it until it is in the hole.


That's it. If you cannot do that, you lose the hole.


For the answer to Jon's question (s), I've done some more digging... here http://www.thegemme.com/writeups/MatchPlayMadness.html


First, there is no OB in Match Play Madness.If you can find it and play it, go ahead.


Since there's no need to define something as a water hazards (because you play it just like the rest of the course), all you have to do is play past the point where your opponent lost his ball and he's got to concede.


Similarly for lost ball, I assume.


Both in the water, or lost, halve the hole

[Rick Lane]

yep, I tried to catch myself.......its why I noted that in that format, you NEVER want to hit first, which I suppose is where the madness is!   I actually get quite a kick out of "counter" forces like that.   I want to win the hole, but then I have to hit first!   Pretty "mad"!  I like it.     

[Erik J. Barzeski]

A push is a half.  So far as both guys losing balls...in matchplay this wouldn't be an issue unless the second guy is a moron...all he has to do is putt he ball to win the hole.  Basically, an OOB situation would be a concession.  In medal play, I guess both guys are back to where they started.

He wouldn't even have to putt. He'd simply have to start looking for his ball second, and thus the opponent would lose the hole first when his five minutes expired.

Both balls couldn't be "lost" at the same exact time, so one player would "lose" first. A ball hit OB is an instant loss of the hole, and even if the second player hit his ball OB, because the first player had already lost the hole… it's over.

Not that this is really how anyone would play the game, but…

[Kyle Harris]

A push is a half.  So far as both guys losing balls...in matchplay this wouldn't be an issue unless the second guy is a moron...all he has to do is putt he ball to win the hole.  Basically, an OOB situation would be a concession.  In medal play, I guess both guys are back to where they started.

He wouldn't even have to putt. He'd simply have to start looking for his ball second, and thus the opponent would lose the hole first when his five minutes expired.

Both balls couldn't be "lost" at the same exact time, so one player would "lose" first. A ball hit OB is an instant loss of the hole, and even if the second player hit his ball OB, because the first player had already lost the hole… it's over.

Not that this is really how anyone would play the game, but…

At any of the thousands of golf courses where a lost ball, OB, or water isn't really a problem.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

At any of the thousands of golf courses where a lost ball, OB, or water isn't really a problem.

There likely isn't a ten-year-old course in the world where a thousand balls haven't been lost. I've seen a player lose a golf ball in the middle of the fairway because they couldn't find the hole into which it sank (it was wet).

[Lou_Duran]

Just wondering how many of those commenting have been to Rules School?  Brings an interesting perspective.

I am told by people who should know that lawyers, with only some regard to their time and qualifications in the game, do very well in the rules school test.  In a class of over 100, many who have taken the course numerous times, one or two perfect scores (100) is very good.  So, no, the rules are anything but simple, sometimes difficult to apply on the dime, and in dire need of modification.

Unfortunately, every change has its downsides.  I am a big fan of leaving the flagstick in to save time.  Others think it is an unnecessary change on the grounds it might assist the player.

Dropping from any distance above the ground sounds reasonable, but how close can one get before it is akin to placing?  To preserve the element of luck without being overly legalistic, why not just modify the current rule to allow a drop from any point above, say, knee high with no further requirement on the position of the arm?

Rules question for the fall: player is on the green and his 30' putt is diverted very slightly by a blowing leaf.  The putt goes in the hole, he counts his stroke and hits from the next tee.  Any consequences?

Rules question 2, player drives his ball into an unplayable lie just off the fairway in high rough and chooses to take a drop with a one stroke penalty.  He measures three club lengths from the spot, drops the ball and it rolls another club length to the fairway,no closer to the hole.  His fellow competitor suggests that the drop was not made according to the rules, so the player picks up his dropped ball and now aligns the point of his original lie with the flagstick and goes back 20 yards, again dropping the ball in the fairway.  He knocks that ball on the green and two putts from there.  What did he score on the hole?

 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Unfortunately, every change has its downsides.  I am a big fan of leaving the flagstick in to save time.  Others think it is an unnecessary change on the grounds it might assist the player.

It does help. And yet some people still take it out, so the rule allowing it to remain in will likely have the opposite result: it will slow play as different players take it out and put it back in.

Dropping from any distance above the ground sounds reasonable, but how close can one get before it is akin to placing?  To preserve the element of luck without being overly legalistic, why not just modify the current rule to allow a drop from any point above, say, knee high with no further requirement on the position of the arm?

What if I squat so that my knee is an inch off the ground?

Rules question for the fall: player is on the green and his 30' putt is diverted very slightly by a blowing leaf.  The putt goes in the hole, he counts his stroke and hits from the next tee.  Any consequences?

19-1b and 19-1/3.

Rules question 2, player drives his ball into an unplayable lie just off the fairway in high rough and chooses to take a drop with a one stroke penalty.  He measures three club lengths from the spot, drops the ball and it rolls another club length to the fairway,no closer to the hole.  His fellow competitor suggests that the drop was not made according to the rules, so the player picks up his dropped ball and now aligns the point of his original lie with the flagstick and goes back 20 yards, again dropping the ball in the fairway.  He knocks that ball on the green and two putts from there.  What did he score on the hole?

20-2c/5

[Pete_Pittock]

Regarding the drop from any height.


Imagine you have hit into a lateral water hazard. You wish to use the option of dropping within two club lengths of the entry point.
The position of the entry point and hole location offers a sliver 2" wide at the 2 club length distance. And the land slopes towards the water.


Having supervised and employed dropping hundreds of times, being able to drop from 1" is an immense huuuge time saver.


My supposition is that the R&A weighed in against placing.

[Sean_A]

Thanks for explaining what a push is.


Wow, Sean, you must be a lot better than I remember off the 1st at Goswick or did you deliberately hit it there


Seriously though, the argument put forward just does not hold water. Yes people do stupid things but the idea that no two ball could both lose their ball as the solution to this obvious flaw gives the answer.


Jon

I am not sure what you mean.  Peter said in his rules the hole is a push if both players can't play their ball for whatever reason. Although, I prefer my approach of the first player to hit it OOB (it would still exist obviously) or lose the ball would lose the hole. We could see an onslaught of guys desperate to hit the short ball on dangerous holes 

Honestly...the one rule I would like to see return in matchplay is the stymie. It is a lot of fun.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I was referring to Ken's post later in the thread not Peter's. I agree about the stymie, we used to play this in friendly rounds back in the late 70s, early 80s and it brought another dimension to the game.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I was referring to Ken's post later in the thread not Peter's. I agree about the stymie, we used to play this in friendly rounds back in the late 70s, early 80s and it brought another dimension to the game.
Jon

Although I'm aware of what it is, I don't recall ever playing 'stymie'. However, many moons ago when a junior we had an unofficial penalty called a 'chuckie'. If 1 junior in a three/fourball was being a prat, as juniors sometimes can be, his ball, 1:62 size and probably with a cut in it, could be 'chucked' as far away as possible!
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I was referring to Ken's post later in the thread not Peter's. I agree about the stymie, we used to play this in friendly rounds back in the late 70s, early 80s and it brought another dimension to the game.
Jon

Although I'm aware of what it is, I don't recall ever playing 'stymie'. However, many moons ago when a junior we had an unofficial penalty called a 'chuckie'. If 1 junior in a three/fourball was being a prat, as juniors sometimes can be, his ball, 1:62 size and probably with a cut in it, could be 'chucked' as far away as possible!
atb

Ah, cut skin golf balls. Do you remember being able to send them away to get reskinned?

[Thomas Dai]

[quote author=Jon Wiggett link=topic=65297.msg1557581#msg1557581 date=1512644217
Ah, cut skin golf balls. Do you remember being able to send them away to get reskinned?



No Jon, I don’t. A new one on me. Tell us more if you have time.
You learn something new every day on GCA!
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,


you (or your pro) used to be able to send cut balls away to be re-covered. In my area it was Slazengers in Horbury. It was cheaper than a new ball and I think they were called 'Spitfires' from recollection though I may have this wrong. I think this must have stopped in the late '70s when the Horbury factory was closed ('77)


Jon

[Ken Moum]

Although I'm aware of what it is, I don't recall ever playing 'stymie'.

Even though I played a LOT of matchplay tournaments starting in the early 60s, I never played under it either. (It was eliminated about 10 years earlier)


BUT, I did play under the last vestige of the stymie, which was that a player could only mark and lift his ball on the green if his opponent told him to.  When the ball was likely to be hit, we'd ask them to mark it and leave it. That rule was changed in 1983, so I had close to 20 years of competition under it. 


FWIW, in my area of Minnesota there was a "Shortstop" tournament somewhere within driving distance almost every Sunday from late May to early September, and except for the championship flight we played nine-hole matches in 8-man flights.


My experience with this is why I have NO doubt that the current buddy system of leaving balls near the hole for the their friends is collusion.


I in the 200+ matches I played before the change I often asked my opponent to leave his ball near the hole while I played a shot.  If it was behind the hole there was no question about leaving it. And if it was short of the hole a foot or two, but off my intended line, I usually left it. 


For anything inside a foot, I'd ALWAYS leave it unless it was a direct stymie.  My theory was that a ball off my line but very close to the hole could deflect it in.  (I don't recall if it ever worked, but I was convinced that having a ball near the hole made it easier to get the line and pace correct because I could see it even when in my putting stance.)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

My experience with this is why I have NO doubt that the current buddy system of leaving balls near the hole for the their friends is collusion.

Do you mean the "backstopping" that's become more and more common on the PGA Tour traces, in your mind, back to a rule that went away in 1983?

[Ken Moum]

My experience with this is why I have NO doubt that the current buddy system of leaving balls near the hole for the their friends is collusion.

Do you mean the "backstopping" that's become more and more common on the PGA Tour traces, in your mind, back to a rule that went away in 1983?

No....


I said my familiarity with how it was done in match play, when it was still allowed, convinces me that what they are doing is intentional.


The manner in which balls are being left around the hole while others play their shots is exactly how we did it back then.... except it was match play, and it was legal.


Proof that this isn't a coincidence, IMHO, can be found in a simple question. "Does anyone EVER remember seeing someone leaving a ball as a backstop for a competitor in the Ryder Cup?"

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas,
you (or your pro) used to be able to send cut balls away to be re-covered. In my area it was Slazengers in Horbury. It was cheaper than a new ball and I think they were called 'Spitfires' from recollection though I may have this wrong. I think this must have stopped in the late '70s when the Horbury factory was closed ('77)
Jon

Thanks Jon. Learn something new every day.
atb

[Kyle Harris]

Would anybody complain about lack of simplicity in the rules if golf courses were designed and maintained in such a way that rules covering lost balls, hazards, and OB were not in play so much?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

No....

Either I worded my question poorly or you misunderstood, because everything after "No…" indicate that you should have said "yes."

Pros are increasingly leaving their balls in place to "help out" their fellow PGA Tour pros when the opposite should be true: they should be protecting the field and marking their ball as they're in a position to assist.

It's not a great thing to see, and it's increasing in its frequency and the brazenness with which players leave balls when they have plenty of time to mark them.

Would anybody complain about lack of simplicity in the rules if golf courses were designed and maintained in such a way that rules covering lost balls, hazards, and OB were not in play so much?

I don't think what people "complain" about is necessarily where we should look to change the Rules.

People complain about hitting out of a divot hole, but that rule shouldn't change.