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Niall C

  • Total Karma: -1
Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« on: November 24, 2017, 06:23:02 AM »
On the discussion on the new Dornoch 7th there was comment about whether the new hole would dog-leg left or right. It occurs to me that shape of the playing corridor is really only part of the story. The green complex and the position of the hole in the green can just as readily dictate or at least suggest a direction of play off the tee and that direction shouldn’t necessarily be up the middle of the fairway even if the fairway is straight. Indeed, especially if it is straight.
 
Neither, I think, need the strategy be fixed. For instance, for all Braid was noted for his dog-legs he was also very adept (IMO) at designing holes where the strategy could readily change with the pin position. With the exception of his ring of bunkers design for a lot of his par 3’s, a lot of his bunkering tended to be on the flanks, both on the side of the fairways and also at the green. Again the side of the green that the hole was on suggested the line of play off the tee for the best approach and that usually involved negotiating one of the fairway bunkers. Simple but effective.
 
Rather than building dog-leg holes to create balance in numbers would it not be better to create more variety in strategy in the “straight” holes ?
 
Thoughts ?
 
Niall

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 06:44:05 AM »
Burnham's 7th is a great example of the hole location dictating the best angle of approach.  Unfortunately, the fairway isn't wide enough down the left to offer a proper choice.

The 15th too is a bit unusual and a great, great hole.  With the hole at the rear of the green it is a decent play to aim out right and let the contours swing the approach in...hence driving to the left side of the fairway makes sense.  With the hole located up front that play is much harder, so it makes more sense to drive to the right and play straight at the flag. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 07:51:13 AM »
Isn't there a quote from an architect, or maybe was it a player, who said something like "the perfect line into a green should never be from the middle of the fairway"?
atb

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 08:58:58 AM »
The quote was about "breaking up the line of instinct" which is the direct line to the hole.  A "straight" hole can definitely be broken up either by using width (with a purpose) and/or hazards that obstruct and/or block the way.  Think about #7 at Pine Valley - a very straight hole.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 09:14:31 AM »
Isn't there a quote from an architect, or maybe was it a player, who said something like "the perfect line into a green should never be from the middle of the fairway"?
atb


Yes. John Low was probably the first to say something like that. Colt, Simpson, MacK and others said much the same later. I will dig out the Low quote.


Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 10:23:49 AM »
Niall, Bob, Thomas -
I couldn't help connect this thread with an exchange that Niall and Sean had on another thread re the less interesting greens featured on classic UK courses relative to American ones.  My thought was that earlier UK architects and golfers (and writers like B Darwin), designing for and playing with the equipment of the day, found much of the necessary interest and challenge tee-to-green, and thus weren't inclined to gild the lily at the green itself. But my question: in quotes about such straight holes, do you know if Low or Braid etc also discussed the greens themselves (sizes, shapes, contours)?






glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 11:02:40 AM »
Or can doglegs be designed so that sometimes the best line of play is straight?


A favorite hole on my home course is a rather sharp dogleg left of 410 yds.  A bunker is in the crook of the dogleg.  The bunker is at an angle, so it juts out into the fairway.


The "obvious" play, at first glance, is to hit one's tee shot a close to the bunker as possible, perhaps even over the corner (a carry of about 240 yards).  If the player goes further right, the approach lengthens dramatically because of the angle of the dogleg.


The key to the hole, however, is the angle and width of the green.  If the player goes right of the bunker, "accepting" the dogleg as it were, the approach is across the angle of the green.  And here is the rub:  the green slopes left to right toward a creek that it is adjacent to the green.  On the left, the green is guarded by a deeper-than-average bunker.


When the flag is in the front portion of the green, an area where the slope is especially steep, a player approaching from the middle of the fairway has a very small target, menaced by the bunker (long and left) and the creek (short and right).  Playing from the bunker, it can even be difficult to keep the ball on the green (and out of the creek on the other side).


After playing the hole dozens of times, I learned that the smarter play is laying up short of the fairway bunker, toward the left side of the fairway.  From there, the player's approach is up the length of the green, not across it.  The approach may be 30 yards longer, but it is much safer.


If one mapped my now preferred attack, it amounts to playing the hole straight, not following the seemingly obvious dogleg.




Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 01:50:34 PM »
Sometimes the hole/fairway is straight but the green is offset.
Or the fairway/green is straight but the tee is offset.
Variety can be nice.
atb

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 02:25:38 PM »
Niall, Bob, Thomas -
I couldn't help connect this thread with an exchange that Niall and Sean had on another thread re the less interesting greens featured on classic UK courses relative to American ones.  My thought was that earlier UK architects and golfers (and writers like B Darwin), designing for and playing with the equipment of the day, found much of the necessary interest and challenge tee-to-green, and thus weren't inclined to gild the lily at the green itself. But my question: in quotes about such straight holes, do you know if Low or Braid etc also discussed the greens themselves (sizes, shapes, contours)?

Peter - Below is Darwin, The Times, 1910, about the flatness and size of greens. Note Low's wonderful description of large greens as "gardens of inaccuracy".

"It is an invidious task to pick out particular courses for the excellence of their greens; but there are a few which would certainly figure very near the top of the poll if a plebiscite of golfers were taken on the subject. In this one respect inland courses can compete on something like even terms with their seaside rivals. It is, for example, impossible to conceive better greens than are to be found at both the Richmond courses, Mid-Surrey and Sudbrook Park; the Woking greens, too, are quite admirable, and so, in certain moods, are those of Sunningdale, although keen and difficult to an almost fiendish degree. Barnton, again, the home of the Edinburgh Burgesses, can boast of almost perfect greens, which doubtless owe something of their loveliness to Peter Lees, who tended them before he went to Richmond. Among seaside links St. Anne's, Troon, Sandwich, and Portmarnock are names that come readily to mind, and perhaps there is no turf quite so deliciously fine as is to be found on the trinity of courses that cluster round Gullane Hill.

There are those who would say that some of the courses mentioned have greens that are too smooth and lawn-like. They would rather sing the praises of those that are just a little barer, harder, and more exacting, such as are to be found at St. Andrews or Hoylake. Neither of these two would probably be acclaimed by a popular vote for the reason that they have not that look of sleek perfection which is given to some others. Yet the Hoylake greens must have been wonderfully true during the last Amateur Championship, or no man could have continued to hole long puts as Mr. Aylmer did during round after round until he met his Waterloo in the final match.

As to the precise qualities that go to make an ideal green there must be many differences of opinion, but it may be safely laid down that they can hardly be too true and that they can very easily be too flat. There can be nothing more entirely depressing than a green like a billiard table, unless it be one of those which consist of one big slope, unbroken by the slightest vestige of a plain or a valley. For purposes of holing out, naturally a somewhat elastic term, a reasonable degree of flatness is desirable, but approach putting over a green laid, with a spirit level is the dreariest work. Whether the greens of St. Anne's are too flat or those of Sunningdale too mountainous is a point that must be left to individual fancy. There remain the questions of size and pace. As to the former there are very great contrasts to be found among the very best of courses. The greens at Bye and Prestwick, for instance, are mere cottage grass-plots compared with the rolling prairies of Sandwich.

The tendency to-day is perhaps rather to restrict the putting area, and the huge greens that were once the pride of southern courses have been shorn of some of their glory since Mr. Low dubbed them "gardens of inaccuracy." The big greens, however, are condemned not because it is not delightful to put on them, but because they deal too kindly with the erratic approacher. It is possible to play a shot of a highly criminal degree of crookedness and yet attain to the confines of the green at the "Maiden" or "Hades" holes. Nevertheless, that very long stroke that one plays with the putter affords a sensation of the purest joy, which is not perceptibly diminished by the knowledge, communicated perhaps by an irascible opponent, that one ought instead to have been delving deep with the niblick."

Bob



Peter Pallotta

Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 02:57:51 PM »

Thank you, Bob - delightful indeed.
And as always with Mr Darwin, there's hardly a (pithy) line that doesn't also contain good insight/much food for thought.
"The greens at Bye and Prestwick, for instance, are mere cottage grass-plots compared with the rolling prairies of Sandwich." ...
"Nevertheless, that very long stroke that one plays with the putter affords a sensation of the purest joy, which is not perceptibly diminished by the knowledge, communicated perhaps by an irascible opponent, that one ought instead to have been delving deep with the niblick."
All the best
Peter
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 02:59:45 PM by Peter Pallotta »

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 03:58:48 PM »
Peter -

No one has ever written better about any sport than Darwin did about golf.

Part of his greatness is the range of references he brought to his writing. How many sports writers were/are experts on literary figures? Darwin was an expert on Charles Dickens and Jane Austen. He sometimes seemed to apply their keen eye to the foibles of the playing game.

A lesser aspect of his greatness was that two of his good friends were John Low and Harry Colt. I think their architectural ideas helped shape his view of how the game should be played when played at its best.   

Sorry for straying OT.

Bob

Norbert P

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Do straight holes need to be played straight ?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 08:13:49 PM »



  Niall, I'm not trying to hijack your thread but here's a spirited old thread (2002 !!!) where some fellers discussed the similar theme.  Chock full of some old GCA agents long gone and missed, except for that puedointellectual (sic) blatherskite Slag ...


                         Click here ----->         http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1983.msg38673/topicseen.html#msg38673
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 08:20:22 PM by Norbert P »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M