Dornoch #7 Update

[Sean_A]

It is an interesting question as to why change the hole so dramatically.  I can only surmise it is for the views.  That said, there are plenty of views to be had at Dornoch so if I were a member this wouldn't wash well with me.  That said, I would be concerned about the stockpiling of cash and wondering what other ideas are floating around to drain the bank account....scarey...and in this context the 7th is a fairly benign plan.  I gotta say the concept for a new clubhouse looked a huge waste of money to me.  Sure, I would want want better facilities, but unless the house was going to be moved and a radical rethink of the 18th was in the cards (which is what I would personally rather see explored...maybe it has been) I would look to improve on the existing building. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean
 
I’m with you. To me there are perhaps other design issues that I’d address before the 7^th and I think the 18^th is one of them. That said, I think the 7^th and possibly the change to the 8^th will be an easy win in the sense that I think it will go down well with visitors and a lot of members alike.
 
With that win tucked under their belt it might be easier for them to get approval for other changes.
 
Niall   

[BCrosby]

Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Sorry to interrupt, Bob, but as a long term observer, the answer is nada!

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I am with you on your last post. If they were to build a new clubhouse then it should be close to the 18th green. If I were a member there I would want them to address the lack of diversity in the par 3s especially the dire 10th as well as keep on top of the gorse better. As to what to spend the money on? Well, maybe getting in one of the big guns such a Coore or Doak to finally upgrade the Struie to a respectable standard. I should add a disclaimer in that I have not played it for over 25 years but should be in the next two weeks so might alter this point of view.


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Jon


I've been arguing with the powers that be for years for a better and expanded Struie (27 holes), but we don't need Doak or Coorshaw, as Robin Hiseman's work several years ago (9 to 14) is superb and he knows the place.


As for the 10th, I think it is one of the top ten "Short" holes in the world of golf.  Please look at it carefully and lovingly and report back.


Slainte


Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob

Bob


The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 


Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Dornoch's 18th reminds me of Merion's 18th, but it is significantly better than the latter due to the green complex.  Merion 18 has a green simplex IMO, and it is probably the worst hole on the track.


Sean, you should be happy to know that the 18th at Dornoch was a 215 yard uphill shot from deep into the trees to the right of what is now the 18th green for the Struie (The Witch) up to the current putting green--pre-WWII.  In the 70's and 80's it was the 9th of the Struie and was a great finish.


Sic transit gloria struie.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 

Aren't we talking about only a ~150 yard walk back to the 1st tee/clubhouse? I certainly wouldn't say that's in no man's land. I also agree with Rich that it is a great green complex, and I don't think the hole needs to be changed at all, especially if it's only to bring the golfer closer to the clubhouse

[David_Tepper]

Ted S. -


I doubt it is even 100 yards from the 18th green to the front door of the clubhouse.


DT

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon


I've been arguing with the powers that be for years for a better and expanded Struie (27 holes), but we don't need Doak or Coorshaw, as Robin Hiseman's work several years ago (9 to 14) is superb and he knows the place.


As for the 10th, I think it is one of the top ten "Short" holes in the world of golf.  Please look at it carefully and lovingly and report back.


Slainte


Rich

Rich,


I haven't seen the work Robin did but am excited to be able to in the coming days. I would be happy if anybody did work to bring Struie up to a level just behind the main course and am sure Robin could be that person.


As for the 10th or the par 3s in general this is something discussed else where. Individually 2,6 &13 are all excellent holes but the all set the same challenge and lack even variety in club selection. 2 & 6 play the same club as do 10 & 13. You are asked to hit the green or miss short. The punishment for not hitting the target is the same steep uphill shot. I would prefer to see atleast one of the left hand traps filled in on 6 and the front two lefthand traps on 13.


As to the 10th. It is a horrible hole devoid of charm or strategy. In a two club downwind it is all but impossible to keep the ball on the putting surface. By removing the front bunker it would be much enhanced.


However, you love for this hole is one of the great things about such discussions in that two people can look at the same thing and reach polar opposite conclusions and both be right.


Jon

[Sean_A]

The golfer is stranded in no man's land after 18 and its not as if the hole current hole is memorable.  If I were a member I would like to see the idea of playing to the practice green explored. 

Aren't we talking about only a ~150 yard walk back to the 1st tee/clubhouse? I certainly wouldn't say that's in no man's land. I also agree with Rich that it is a great green complex, and I don't think the hole needs to be changed at all, especially if it's only to bring the golfer closer to the clubhouse

Ted

Yes, I am an outlier in that I highly value a house which is incorporated into the 18 holes.  IMO a hole just as good or better than 18 could be built using the site (or very nearby) of the practice green thereby using the house more efficiently and promoting club social life (who doesn't enjoy the 1st tee and 18th green by the house?). 

Rich...thanks, yes, I knew the practice green used to be part of the course.

BTW...I agree with Rich, Merion's 18th is not the awesome folks make it out to be. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean/Niall -


What are the issues with the 18th?


Bob

Bob


I like to say that you judge the great courses and just enjoy the lesser ones. In that vein RDGC deserves to be judged although in truth I don't think it nearly as good as a lot of others do. There are a couple of issues for me.


Firstly, there are too many plateau greens at Dornoch for my liking. The 18th green kind of comes into that category in so much as I remember it the green more or less is at grade but it has a bit of a dry moat to the front of the green that effectively strongly favours a pitching shot.


That brings me to the second issue. The back nine tends to be a slog. To reference David Teppers quote about the Olympic Course and needing to get his fairway woods re-gripped after every time he plays it, well that's what I feel like with the back nine at RD. There is too much emphasis on length. If getting up isn't really on then there is little interest left in some of the holes IMO. So it is with the 18th to an extent although I accept the pitch with the 3rd shot, assuming you can't reach in 2, has some interest/degree of difficulty in terms of dealing with the moat as I referred to earlier.


That's my issues but I suspect others might have an issue with the green relative to the clubhouse etc which to be honest doesn't bother me too much.


Niall

[BCrosby]

Niall -


Thanks for getting back. For different reasons, I share your reservations about Dornoch. I have played it and Muirfield twice and both, while very good courses, felt more like very good American courses than other Scottish courses I played. Which is why neither is high on my list for return play.


Both should be played, however. And both offer a memorable day of golf, on and off the course.


Bob


P.S. As you know, our man John Low was an early Dornoch enthusiast. He traveled to play the course for a number of years before the First World War. I don't have a good picture of the design of the course he would have played. 


 

[David_Tepper]

"The back nine tends to be a slog."

Niall -

Really? The back nine has a shortish par-5 (#12), two mid/short-iron par-3's (#10 & #13) and a drive & pitch/chip par-4. #17 is a 3-wood & mid-iron par-4 (even for a short hitter like me).

Granted, the other par-4's can play very long if there is a strong wind out of the west. But if they are downwind, they are reachable (even for a short hitter like me).

DT   

[Rich Goodale]

Niall -


Thanks for getting back. For different reasons, I share your reservations about Dornoch. I have played it and Muirfield twice and both, while very good courses, felt more like very good American courses than other Scottish courses I played. Which is why neither is high on my list for return play.


Both should be played, however. And both offer a memorable day of golf, on and off the course.


Bob


P.S. As you know, our man John Low was an early Dornoch enthusiast. He traveled to play the course for a number of years before the First World War. I don't have a good picture of the design of the course he would have played. 

Bob


There is a good map of the 1906 course in the clubhouse and copied by Dr. John McLeod, who wrote a book on the history of the course.  You can probably get John's book online from the pro shop.


I wrote an IMO essay on the architectural history of Dornoch, 15 years ago, and it is still embedded on the tool bar on this site.  It's mostly reliable, and let me know if you have any questions.


All the  best


Rich

[BCrosby]

Thanks Rich. Will check out those sources. I had forgotten you had done a piece on Dornoch history.


Shame on me.


Bob

[David_Tepper]

"There is a good map of the 1906 course in the clubhouse and copied by Dr. John McLeod, who wrote a book on the history of the course.  You can probably get John's book online from the pro shop."

BCrosby -

The Golf Links to the Past shop in the little shopping arcade across from the Lodge at Pebble Beach has copies of Dr. MacLeod's book on the history of Dornoch in stock.

https://www.golfspast.com/

I was in there a couple of weeks ago. The proprietor claimed he had bought the remaining new copies of the book from MacLeod's daughter.

https://www.amazon.com/History-Royal-Dornoch-Golf-1877-1999/dp/1870151100/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512075156&sr=1-1&keywords=royal+Dornoch

DT

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for the info, David.  I think I will give them a call to see if they might want to sell some of my books.  Interesting about Dr. John's daughter.  I knew her, briefly, and think she was married to an erstwhile poster on this forum who was edgy but very interesting and informative.  'Tis a small world out there.


Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks Rich. Will check out those sources. I had forgotten you had done a piece on Dornoch history.


Shame on me.


Bob

No shame at all.


As a history buff, you might be interested in a book recently published called "Golf Causerie" which reproduces the weekly columns re: golf for the London Daily News and written by John Sutherland.  It also has several forwards from Sutherland groupies, including Todd Warnock, the force behind the project of the book as well as the creation of Coull Linkks.  It is well presented, and the forwards are passionate.


Your icon, Mr. Lowe, is referenced often in the archives, and he did have a passion for the Dornoch Links, even though he was beaten in the Dornoch Invasion of Muirfield by a commoner, a Mr. Alec Morrison.


There is also a good reproduction of the 1892 Dornoch map, which varies much from the 1906 one.  I don't think that Low made it up there until the 20th century.


Slainte


Rich


PS--the number for the book is ISBN 978-90-821625-2-3


j-p p

[Niall C]

Excellent stuff. The 1892 map was reproduced in the Golf Annual some time in the 1890's from memory.


Niall

[BCrosby]

Rich -


I saw a couple of reviews of Golf Causerie when it first appeared. It didn't seem to touch on areas I am rooting around in. But sounds like I should check it out.


Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Bob


90% of the 500+ pages tome are replications of John Sutherland's 1906-1912 brief essays for a London raggie, but as he was very well kent by the golfing powers that be in those days, it is very informative.  During that period he visited NGLA, Myopia, Garden City and Merion, amongst others and also took a trip Japan, all of which he discussed in depth.  He also reported on Opens, Amateurs and other high level tournaments, many of which he participated in.  The first 50+ pages are devoted to the editors and funders and interesting if not particularly informative.  It's worth the 25 quid it sells for, but shipment to the US would possibly double the cost due to its weight.


Slainte


Rich

[James Brown]

151 yards from the edge of the 18th green to the door of the clubhouse. 

[David_Tepper]

James B. -

I stand corrected. But even at 151 yards to the clubhouse, I have never felt "stranded" walking off the 18th green. I have had other feelings however.

DT