Yee olde period flat greens

[Thomas Dai]

I was talking recently to an elderl gentleman who, before WWII, had been a caddy and occasional ‘unofficial’ player on a now NLE inland U.K. common land course dating back to the early 1880’s which had square flat greens.


Even though he didn’t witness such himself he recalled hearing that the greens were apparently during earlier generations cut with scythes and long-handled sheers (with all other areas cut/‘eaten’ by grazing animals).


He recalled being told as a lad that yee olde greens were normally flat as when using sharp pointed/ended scythes and long-handled sheers on slopes or contours it wasn’t possible to achieve an accurate, consistent quality of cut.


Is this maybe why many very old greens are essentially flat or flat-topped plateau’s?


Thoughts?


Atb

[Garland Bayley]

Or it could be that they simply didn't know any better. Creating these greens would be one of the reasons Dr. AM would argue you should get a knowledgeable architect to help you out.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,


indeed greens were cut by scythes back in the days before the reel mower came on the scene and so it would make sense that the area cut would be flat. I also suspect that it would be very small in area as well. The square green however was not due to this but due to the pushed reel mower which was very heavy and difficult to push even in a straight line let alone around a corner. It was common practice to tie a rope to the mower and have someone pull from the front whilst a second person pushed.


More contoured greens came in with the invention of the self propelled mower. This made it possible to mow up hill much easier. Yes, golden age GCAs did push for more contours on greens but this was only possible due to advancements in maintemance equipment.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Jon,
Thanks for the detail and for correcting me. It would have been best if I'd not used the word 'square'. I shall remove it.
This short video made me chuckle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfIHiBB6xE - so much for modern technology!!
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Man against machine and the machine lost!!! Who would have thought. I actually use a scythe for doing some of my tricky banking cutting as it does a quicker and neater job. Some time the old ways are still the best

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Man against machine and the machine lost!!! Who would have thought. I actually use a scythe for doing some of my tricky banking cutting as it does a quicker and neater job. Some time the old ways are still the best
Jon

+1!
atb

[Niall C]

Great discussion.
 
If I recall correctly in the Turnberry history book there is an early photo of the first layout with possibly the first green shown and there is a roller beside the green that could only have been pulled by a horse or a team of men. The green has some undulation but is still square so flat and square didn’t necessarily go hand in hand.
 
I’ve come across newspaper reports from the 1890’s where the writer has complained of greens being laid as flat as a billiard table. It occurs to me that there were perhaps several reasons for greens being laid flat.
 
Firstly the breed of new golfers didn’t know any better.
 
Secondly, that in the late 1880’s and 1890’s, in Scotland at least, a lot of the guys who maybe laid the greens and looked after them would have worked on bowling greens. There were significantly more bowling greens than golf greens in Scotland at that time, and the contractors would have been more used to building flat bowling greens.
 
A third reason might also be that it’s perhaps easier to lay turf and get it to knit together better if there aren’t any contours ? I’m just an office worker so I’ll leave it to others to say whether there is any merit in that argument.
 
With regards the square shape, I think I’m correct in saying that most greens back then were turfed rather than seeded. Might it not have been easier to lay square/rectangular greens where the turf was rolled out in strips ?
 
Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great discussion.
 
If I recall correctly in the Turnberry history book there is an early photo of the first layout with possibly the first green shown and there is a roller beside the green that could only have been pulled by a horse or a team of men. The green has some undulation but is still square so flat and square didn’t necessarily go hand in hand.
 
I’ve come across newspaper reports from the 1890’s where the writer has complained of greens being laid as flat as a billiard table. It occurs to me that there were perhaps several reasons for greens being laid flat.
 
Firstly the breed of new golfers didn’t know any better.
 
Secondly, that in the late 1880’s and 1890’s, in Scotland at least, a lot of the guys who maybe laid the greens and looked after them would have worked on bowling greens. There were significantly more bowling greens than golf greens in Scotland at that time, and the contractors would have been more used to building flat bowling greens.
 
A third reason might also be that it’s perhaps easier to lay turf and get it to knit together better if there aren’t any contours ? I’m just an office worker so I’ll leave it to others to say whether there is any merit in that argument.
 
With regards the square shape, I think I’m correct in saying that most greens back then were turfed rather than seeded. Might it not have been easier to lay square/rectangular greens where the turf was rolled out in strips ?
 
Niall

[/size][/color]
[/size]Niall I’m with you regarding bowling green’s being commonplace but think turfing was in very short supply.[/color][/size]  [/color][/size]The grass seed companies didn’t get their act together on golf until after the heathlands revolution and I think of Square greens as earlier than that. [/color][/size]  That said there would have been some manual digging of turves and moving them around site where the budget allowed.  Even the most outrageuosly MacKenzie green could be laid using pegs so a skilled ocntractor wouldnt have been put off by curves.[/color][/size] [/color]Mostly I believe they looked for green sites where the drainage was good and fine grasses grew. Their aim ws to disturb as little as possible.[/size][/color] [/size][/color]One other idea on this I have posited on here before. It is much easier for unskilled labour to work to a square pattern. Where supervision is lacking this is what labourers will tend to do anyway.  I speak as a landscaper and its as true to day as it was back when laser measuring devices were made of twine. [/size]

[Niall C]

That's easy for you to say

[Niall C]

[size=0px][/size][/color]Niall [/font]
[/color]I’m with you regarding bowling green’s being commonplace but think turfing was in very short supply.The grass seed companies didn’t get their act together on golf until after the heathlands revolution and I think of Square greens as earlier than that.   That said there would have been some manual digging of turves and moving them around site where the budget allowed.  Even the most outrageuosly MacKenzie green could be laid using pegs so a skilled contractor wouldn't have been put off by curves.[/color]Mostly I believe they looked for green sites where the drainage was good and fine grasses grew. Their aim ws to disturb as little as possible. One other idea on this I have posited on here before. It is much easier for unskilled labour to work to a square pattern. Where supervision is lacking this is what labourers will tend to do anyway.  I speak as a landscaper and its as true to day as it was back when laser measuring devices were made of twine.[/font]

[Niall C]

CG’17
 
Of course I bow to your landscaping knowledge. What I would say however is that in the 1890’s most of the square flat greens were in new inland courses where fine grasses ideally suited for putting tended to be in short supply, so while I can imagine that on the odd course particularly links, they could use fine turf close at hand where required, I’d imagine on some of the inland greens at least it might have had to be imported. But for definite a lot of greens were turfed rather than mowed out.
 
Was Skinburness salt marshes near Silloth not used as a turf nursery. I seemed to recall Skinburness turf was used to turf many football pitches including Wembley.
 
Niall
Jim Goaby Memorial Quaich – Runner Up 2017
Ps. Question – who remembers the runner up ? Answer – I do !!

[Jon Wiggett]

Turf cutting was not uncommon at this time as it was used as a roofing material in many poorer communities. There would have been enough skilled turf cutters to do this. I can see the point about the prevalence of bowling greens but not that it was easier to lay a square area than a roundish one. Said it before but it is worth repeating. The main reason for square greens was the machinery.


Jon

[Niall C]

Jon

I'm not doubting your idea and it seems a very likely reason but I also think it was one of many. Whatever the reason(s) there appears to be what you might call a bit of a "convention" to build square flat greens at that time.

That said, I've just reread WPJ's Game of Golf book where he describes what's required in laying out a green and suggests laying turf should be done as a last resort and that best to work with what you have. That was in 1896.

What I've never adequately figured out is why quite a lot of these square greens were 20 yards by 20 yards. I'm aware of the rule at the time that the green comprised everything within 20 yards of the hole that wasn't a hazard but that doesn't really compute with a 20 x 20 green where the closest edges of the laid surface would be only 10 yards from the centre. Any thoughts ?

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


I suspect the definition of 20 yards was more to do with etiquette (no divot taking) than maintenance but that is pure speculation on my part. Do not forget the difference between the playing characteristics of the green and the fairway would have not been so great if at noticeable.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I wondered if 20 yds was somehow to do with the Imperial Measurement system. So I looked IM up and got even more confused as to the origin!
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/units/length.htm
atb


PS - 22 yd cricket pitch equals 1 ‘chain’ or 4 ‘poles’ or 100 ‘links’ (Well, I think it does! )
PSS - 20 yds does equal 1/2 ‘bolt’ though.

[Niall C]

Jon
 
That might well be true and from memory the 20 yard rule also allowed the player to remove sticks and whatever other debris was in the way of the ball, however as I said in earlier post why build square greens that are 20 yards by 20 yards. According to the rules the green is a perfect circle of 40 yards diameter (excluding hazards) whereas what was being built was square and very much smaller.
 
Apart from the “co-incidence” of 20 yards, the two seem to bear no relation to each other.
 
Dai
 
I hadn’t thought of the old measurements. Perhaps using 1 unit of whatever the unit was was a handy way of measuring it out. I think I’m right in saying that the old Scots measurements were slightly different from their English counterparts which might explain the difference say between 20 yards and 22 yards ?
 
Niall