Faster Greens = Slower Play

[Garland Bayley]

Why didn't you look at the interview? He's one of the if not the foremost expert on pace of play in golf. He gives examples.
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Probably because it is meaningless for this discussion. As an "expert" he measured the players as they play. Erik is suggesting players shouldn't play as they do now, but faster.

I being the jerk that I am have to scold players that tell me they don't play faster because they have nothing better to do. The problem is that certainly more than half the players have something better to do than to wait on slow players that have nothing better to do.

Slow play is caused by slow players. Your expert gave it as one of the two top reasons for slow play.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Why didn't you look at the interview? He's one of the if not the foremost expert on pace of play in golf. He gives examples.

Honestly, because I didn't know Bill Yates from Bill Gates. You didn't say "he's one of the foremost experts on pace of play in golf" when you noted the interview.  I'm involved in a lot of aspects of golf, but I don't run a golf course, so pace of play solutions are outside my area of expertise (as is architecture).

Now that I know, I'll look for and read it now. Here it is. Ahhhh, a somewhat local guy. I've got two guys on my college team from Coraopolis (Pittsburgh). I'll read it and add some notes at the end…

The freeway hold ups are a good analogy but golfers can't accelerate to 70 mph after a hold up so the amount of time that can be made up after delays on holes is limited by how quickly golfers walk, they're not going to walk twice as fast.

No, but if they were waiting even a minute on each shot before, they can make up those minutes.

Yes, 11 minute tee times will lead to quicker rounds over 9 minute tee times.

I don't doubt that (and I've yet to read the article). What I'm saying, though, is that slow players themselves are a bigger problem. Slow players can take a 3.5-hour round and turn everyone on the course into a 5-hour round player. Two minutes in tee time gaps has less of an effect, currently, IMO. Slow play has many facets.

And here's a couple of examples why from two local courses, one which is now closed, started with a shortish par 4 followed by a long par 3, if players went off the first tee too quickly they would immediately be waiting on the second tee and on busy days there would be 3 or 4 groups waiting on the second tee. Another local club has a medium length par 4 to start followed by a short par 5, again if players go off the first tee too early and with players waiting for the second in two there is now a blockage straight away, longer intervals off the first eliminates both these problems.

So would other things: 1) players waving players up on the green on the second hole, or 2) a different routing to the course. I think #2 is more likely the cause of the issue than even #1 or the tee time intervals. (I'm open to being proven wrong.)

Whispering Woods nearby where I live has a difficult and for some partially blind approach par four first, and a relatively short but somewhat dangerous par three second. Groups will occasionally pile up on the second tee a little (often just two groups), but then the third is a par five that's not super reachable for most, and groups space themselves out again there.

BTW I asked the WW head pro what he thought, and he said "slow players." Then added "One slow group kills the day."

One slow play issue which is rarely addressed is golfer's perceptions of slow, a round which takes a long time will not be perceived to be slow as the groups might never be waiting and a round which can take a shorter time can be perceived as very slow due to numerous waits.

I appreciate that, but I'm defining slow play as "rounds that take a lot longer than other rounds on that course." 

If slow play was just caused by one factor it would be much easier to solve but there is a number of factors and if a club/course is not aware of all the factors a proper solution will not be achieved. When it comes to player behaviour, nobody will ever admit they're a slow player and clubs/courses are unwilling/unknowledgeable in how to deal with them. Most clubs/courses are also completely unaware of the affect starting times has on the pace of play too.

I agree with all that, too. But I still think slow play is more attributable to slow players than any other factor. Let me read the article and I'll post some comments below.

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From the article:

The truth, however, is that while very accurate, the Pace Ratings themselves did not change management practices or the individual player's behaviour, for these are two of the main areas where the root causes for "slow play" emanate.

Yes, "management practices" is mentioned first. That could include tee time intervals, but I imagine it covers a lot of other things, too.

Those are the top two items on his list, too… 1) Management Practices and Policies, 2) Player Behaviour, 3) Player Ability, 4) Course Maintenance and Set-up, and 5) Course Design

So according to him, having the par three as the second hole is not as bad as having slower players (player behavior, #2). Okay. I can buy that.

(Side note: I find it odd that he finds it odd that 87% of the courses have three par 4s in the first five holes. That's 60%. Normally 10 out of 18 holes on a course are par fours, and that's 56%. So…?   Seems like what you'd expect, really.)

Okay, I finished the article, and I don't see where he specifically said anything about the intervals. The only time the word "interval" appeared was when he was talking about a hypothetical. He talked vaguely, several times, about "management practices," but that can mean a LOT of things.

Probably because it is meaningless for this discussion. As an "expert" he measured the players as they play. Erik is suggesting players shouldn't play as they do now, but faster.

Right.

Slow play is caused by slow players. Your expert gave it as one of the two top reasons for slow play.

I'm still convinced of this, and I read the interview thoroughly.

[Sean_A]

I think people are failing to fully grasp that changing behaviour is often more difficult than changing course policy and set-up.  Approaching the problem on all fronts is the best solution.  The worst would be to simply blame behaviour and expect it to change.  That is a hard road to pave, especially on courses where it matters most...ones that are pay and play.  I don't take clubs seriously about slow play until they cut back practically all vegetation, ensure fairways are wide enough, make sure tee times are properly spread and possibly institute forms of penalty or reward for pace of play.  My solution is to avoid slow times/days/clubs/courses.  Big name clubs are taking the piss by shoving visitor 4ball after visitor 4ball out for big money at a 4:30+ pace.  Surely the experience of the day at some point trumps the quality of the course. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I think people are failing to fully grasp that changing behaviour is often more difficult than changing course policy and set-up.  Approaching the problem on all fronts is the best solution.  The worst would be to simply blame behaviour and expect it to change.  That is a hard road to pave, especially on courses where it matters most...ones that are pay and play.  I don't take clubs seriously about slow play until they cut back practically all vegetation, ensure fairways are wide enough, make sure tee times are properly spread and possibly institute forms of penalty or reward for pace of play.  My solution is to avoid slow times/days/clubs/courses.  Big name clubs are taking the piss by shoving visitor 4ball after visitor 4ball out for big money at a 4:30+ pace.  Surely the experience of the day at some point trumps the quality of the course. 

Ciao

Ciao

+1

[jeffwarne]

I think people are failing to fully grasp that changing behaviour is often more difficult than changing course policy and set-up.  Approaching the problem on all fronts is the best solution.  The worst would be to simply blame behaviour and expect it to change.  That is a hard road to pave, especially on courses where it matters most...ones that are pay and play.  I don't take clubs seriously about slow play until they cut back practically all vegetation, ensure fairways are wide enough, make sure tee times are properly spread and possibly institute forms of penalty or reward for pace of play.  My solution is to avoid slow times/days/clubs/courses.  Big name clubs are taking the piss by shoving visitor 4ball after visitor 4ball out for big money at a 4:30+ pace.  Surely the experience of the day at some point trumps the quality of the course. 

Ciao

Yep
Princes-5 hours(exactly how long it took us to play 36 holes the day before at Deal with 4 of us)
Western Gailles-5 hours-punctuated by member 2 balls insisting on playing through when it was clear there was nowhere for the to go with 8 Swedish 4 balls(sounds like an entree in a bad restaurant) in front.If a club insists on whoring itself out, the members should suffer along with the guests from bad tee time management.
Ironically all that visitor play revenue is used "improve" conditions(copying American green speed) and further slow down play


Give me Dunfanaghy any day

[Sean_A]

Jeff

You post also raises the issue of group size.  There is a big difference between 4ball and 2ball play, especially when clubs cater to 2ball play.  Bottom line, comparing Princes to Deal is apples to oranges because of play policy.  It is better to compare 4ball to 4ball to actually see what the issues are.   

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

agreed Sean, the mixing of multiple member 2 balls directly behind 10 Four balls(at least) was more my point-if you want subsidized dues, something has to give if not properly managed. In a matter of moments someone will chime in that they should be let through.(10+ 4 balls) I'd argue they shouldn't even have been let out as two balls, but rather paired up or instructed they weren't going anywhere and to relax.