[Michael Whitaker]

Most Americans have never heard of any Scotland course not on the following list:

Old Course
Carnoustie
Troon
Prestwick
Gleneagles
Trump Aberdeen
Royal Aberdeen
Turnberry
Royal Dornoch
Cruden Bay
Muirfield
Kingsbarns
Castle Stuart

[Bill Gayne]

For purposes of this discussion I would define "World class" as a golf course that would be the best or equal to the best if it was relocated to any other region of the World. For example if Cypress Point was placed in Scotland, Long Island, Philadelphia, Sand Belt of Australia, etc it would be the best or equal to the best in every other location and hence Cypress Point is World Class.


For the courses in Scotland I would say that for Muirfield, TOC, and Carnoustie. Probably a more narrow definition than others.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

For purposes of this discussion I would define "World class" as a golf course that would be the best or equal to the best if it was relocated to any other region of the World. For example if Cypress Point was placed in Scotland, Long Island, Philadelphia, Sand Belt of Australia, etc it would be the best or equal to the best in every other location and hence Cypress Point is World Class.


For the courses in Scotland I would say that for Muirfield, TOC, and Carnoustie. Probably a more narrow definition than others.

Where would Dornoch or North Berwick not be equal to the best?

[Jon Wiggett]

These sort of threads are always a bit of a waste of time (no disrespect meant Niall) because it always depends on the definition of World Class. For me it is a course that is equally playable but still challenging for all levels of golfer of which I have only played one which is TOC though Muirfield when the rough is down also fits the bill. I have played many great courses including the likes of Pine Valley, Carnoustie, RSG but none of which were world class for those other than low handicappers.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Adam,


When I look at Sean’s list I figure I can play Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen on the way but wouldn’t plan to go to only one of them from Philly. So the trip must be just to that one course for it to be great. I did this for TOC , Ballybunion, Oakmont, NGLA and RCD.

Man...that is a tough standard.  So you crossed an ocean on individual trips to see TOC, Ballybunion and RDC? 


Ciao

If those courses weren’t on the trip there would not have been a trip.

So your trips included other courses?  Right, so world class isn't simply about making a trip to play one course.  I too have made significant trips (as we all have I am sure) with certain courses as the main targets. Often times I knew beforehand that the targeted courses were not world class. 

I would suggest that "world class" has nothing to do with trip planning habits.  These courses are world class regardless of how and why people make plans to play them.  To a large degree we must all accept that what we are talking about is a canon of courses which will change over time except for the core which is a far smaller number than 1% (probably .1%!) of the world's courses because far less than 1% are included in any type of "concensus" review.  At the end of the day it doesn't matter.  Folks will try to play the courses they and their mates enjoy and can afford.  For some golfers that will include all world class courses for others it would be a dream to play a few such courses.  Luckily there are hundreds if not thousands of very enjoyable courses which will never enter the world class conversation.  I always say greatness is over-rated....Scotland has far more than 14 courses which are worth traveling to see.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Heresy maybe, but is ToC still 'world class' from the playing point of view?
atb

[Robin_Hiseman]

The candidates for me and looking at what folks say thru lists...

Castle Stuart
N Berwick
TOC
Prestwick
Gleneagles Kings
Kingsbarns
Dornoch
Elie
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen
Renaissance
Trump Aberdeen
Muirfield
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Troon

But there is world class and there is world class...big difference between top 30 world and top 100 world.

Ciao

I'd substitute Machrihanish and Loch Lomond for Renaissance and Elie. I doubt either of the latter are well known enough to have been amongst the 14 Niall originally referred to. Nairn might have been in there too.

[JESII]

These sort of threads are always a bit of a waste of time (no disrespect meant Niall) because it always depends on the definition of World Class. For me it is a course that is equally playable but still challenging for all levels of golfer of which I have only played one which is TOC though Muirfield when the rough is down also fits the bill. I have played many great courses including the likes of Pine Valley, Carnoustie, RSG but none of which were world class for those other than low handicappers.


Jon

Pine Valley, Muirfield, Carnoustie and Royal St. Georges fall short of world class? OK!


For me, World Class would be broader than many I guess. Closer to that 1% number thrown out earlier.

[Niall C]

What do those courses listed thus far have that Brora doesn't?

Mike

An excellent question. I enjoy Brora but don't think as highly of it as others but then I could say the same about the course just down the road. What makes someone think one course is better than another is to an extent subjective. Personally I think Silloth and County Sligo better than most courses listed so far but then those two aren't in Scotland so forget I said that !


You then have the "2nd tier" courses such as Nairn, Skibo, Moray, Gailes etc. I'd have some of them on the list as well.


Niall

[jeffwarne]

Heresy maybe, but is ToC still 'world class' from the playing point of view?
atb

yes!

[Tim Gallant]

Someone mentioned the football starting XI and I think that is a good analogy. I think truly world-class is the Top Gun 'Best of the best' (no points for second place boys ).


By that logic, I defer to Mr. Coore, who said on the Fried Egg podcast that there are probably 50 courses where, on any given day, you could play the course and say 'This is the best course in the world'. With that in mind, I would say there are roughly 50 world class courses (Doak 10s and 9s), which would translate to roughly 4 or 5 courses in Scotland: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NB, Carnoustie and maybe Turnberry.

[Jon Wiggett]

These sort of threads are always a bit of a waste of time (no disrespect meant Niall) because it always depends on the definition of World Class. For me it is a course that is equally playable but still challenging for all levels of golfer of which I have only played one which is TOC though Muirfield when the rough is down also fits the bill. I have played many great courses including the likes of Pine Valley, Carnoustie, RSG but none of which were world class for those other than low handicappers.


Jon

Pine Valley, Muirfield, Carnoustie and Royal St. Georges fall short of world class? OK!


For me, World Class would be broader than many I guess. Closer to that 1% number thrown out earlier.

Jim,


to take Pine Valley as an example. It is a great course and was a fabulous experience to play there. My two rounds will be something that I will always remember but it is not a course I would ever have considered taking my Dad to (22 was his best handicap) as it would have been unplayable for him on many of the holes. I cannot find a way to of calling a course world class which has such a flaw in its design.


Jon

[MClutterbuck]

Niall -- OK then -- I will offer you a definition of world class that (unlike those based around course rankings) has the virtue of being at least objectively based.


A world class golf course is one that attracts a not negligible number of people from outside its immediate area (however you want to define that) to come and play it.

That's just silly.  According to your definition at one point The Belfry was World Class.  The quality of a golf course cannot depend on the strength of its marketing.


In any sport, when the expression "world class" is used the tendency always seems to be to go with far too small a number.  In soccer being "world class" doesn't mean you get into a mythical World XI, it's enough to be at a level where the discussion of your name in that group isn't silly.  I'm quite happy with the concept that there are more than 100 world class golf courses in the world., though 14 feels a little high for Scotland and 5 feels too few.

If 14 is high for Scotland, you do not get to 100 worldwide, in my opinion.

[JESII]

My impression of Royal Melbourne is that under semi-frequent conditions the greens are so fast that a poor putter (perhaps in the 22 handicap range) can putt into a bunker on most of the holes...and once in a bunker, that caliber of player can rarely find the green with their next...


Might you be judging in too narrow of a spectrum?


I caddied for a great number of Bogey+ golfers at Pine Valley and yes, they all struggle on some or most of the holes...but surely Pine Valley is World Class or else the term is irrelevant.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If someone hasn't already said it, I'd bet my house that they were referring to the 14 Scottish courses on the Golf Magazine Top-100.

[Sean_A]

Someone mentioned the football starting XI and I think that is a good analogy. I think truly world-class is the Top Gun 'Best of the best' (no points for second place boys ).


By that logic, I defer to Mr. Coore, who said on the Fried Egg podcast that there are probably 50 courses where, on any given day, you could play the course and say 'This is the best course in the world'. With that in mind, I would say there are roughly 50 world class courses (Doak 10s and 9s), which would translate to roughly 4 or 5 courses in Scotland: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NB, Carnoustie and maybe Turnberry.

If this is the standard and if Merion and Pinehurst #2 are in the conversation...I am not convinced there is a Scottish course at this level.  The one course in GB&I that I am sure is on that level is Sandwich...and it is usually not included in the conversation.


Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Someone mentioned the football starting XI and I think that is a good analogy. I think truly world-class is the Top Gun 'Best of the best' (no points for second place boys ).


By that logic, I defer to Mr. Coore, who said on the Fried Egg podcast that there are probably 50 courses where, on any given day, you could play the course and say 'This is the best course in the world'. With that in mind, I would say there are roughly 50 world class courses (Doak 10s and 9s), which would translate to roughly 4 or 5 courses in Scotland: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NB, Carnoustie and maybe Turnberry.

Not Royal County Down?


For mine, Muirfield, but let's not go there!


If this is the standard and if Merion and Pinehurst #2 are in the conversation...I am not convinced there is a Scottish course at this level.  The one course in GB&I that I am sure is on that level is Sandwich...and it is usually not included in the conversation.


Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

For purposes of this discussion I would define "World class" as a golf course that would be the best or equal to the best if it was relocated to any other region of the World. For example if Cypress Point was placed in Scotland, Long Island, Philadelphia, Sand Belt of Australia, etc it would be the best or equal to the best in every other location and hence Cypress Point is World Class.


For the courses in Scotland I would say that for Muirfield, TOC, and Carnoustie. Probably a more narrow definition than others.

Where would Dornoch or North Berwick not be equal to the best?

Ted,


I'm not going to make a judgment on Dornoch because I haven't been there. Maybe next year's BUDA it will happen.


I have been to NB multiple times and love the place and the golf course but am hesitant to put it on the World class list as I've defined it. If you put NB on Long Island would it be equal to or better than NGLA and Shinnecock Hills, if in Philadelphia equal to Pine Valley and Merion, on the west coast of Ireland equal to Ballybunion and Lahinch, in Northern Ireland equal to RCD and RPR?


Like I said, I think I'm using a pretty narrow definition but World Class by definition should be a very short list.


Bill

[Sean_A]

For purposes of this discussion I would define "World class" as a golf course that would be the best or equal to the best if it was relocated to any other region of the World. For example if Cypress Point was placed in Scotland, Long Island, Philadelphia, Sand Belt of Australia, etc it would be the best or equal to the best in every other location and hence Cypress Point is World Class.


For the courses in Scotland I would say that for Muirfield, TOC, and Carnoustie. Probably a more narrow definition than others.

Where would Dornoch or North Berwick not be equal to the best?

I have been to NB multiple times and love the place and the golf course but am hesitant to put it on the World class list as I've defined it. If you put NB on Long Island would it be equal to or better than NGLA and Shinnecock Hills, if in Philadelphia equal to Pine Valley and Merion, on the west coast of Ireland equal to Ballybunion and Lahinch, in Northern Ireland equal to RCD and RPR?

Bill

Bill

I don't know about all this business of transplanting courses for comparison, that doesn't make much sense to me.  However, I do think North Berwick is the equal of Lahinch and TOC and better than Portrush, RCD and Ballybunion.  But I give massive kudos for originality in design. 

Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

NB does have originality in design. It's one of a kind.

[Matt MacIver]

The bell-shaped curve approach works.. for a bit: 32,000 worldwide courses = 3200 courses with an A grade. Ok, too many. 320...maybe.  Until the CG or Bo Derek came along and changed the perception of what was Great. Is a 91 on a golf Course scale really a Doak 7?  Coore is probably close to right in that the number varies...but I like 150 courses, with adjustments to skill, temperament (hard v fun), daily condition and preferences (F&F, eye candy, match play vs stroke, etc).  Big world and all that stuff.


Pinehurst #2 gets an A grade but is too hard and one dimensional to replace any top tier fun U.K. courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

My impression of Royal Melbourne is that under semi-frequent conditions the greens are so fast that a poor putter (perhaps in the 22 handicap range) can putt into a bunker on most of the holes...and once in a bunker, that caliber of player can rarely find the green with their next...


Might you be judging in too narrow of a spectrum?


I caddied for a great number of Bogey+ golfers at Pine Valley and yes, they all struggle on some or most of the holes...but surely Pine Valley is World Class or else the term is irrelevant.

Jim,


you are correct that for low handicappers that Pine Valley is a world class course but as this is a site about GCA not professional golf I would respectfully suggest that any course that is unplayable for a large section of the golfing population has a design flaw from a GCA perspective.


Your RM example is a good one though the difficulty you describe is in the set up not the design. With slower green speeds I would suggest it is more than playable for the average player. I would also imagine that with the easier pin positions and humane green speeds ANGC would be in this bracket too.


PV is a great course and I cherish the rounds I played there but it is not IMHO world class from a GCA point of view due to the obvious flaw.


Jon

[MClutterbuck]

Your RM example is a good one though the difficulty you describe is in the set up not the design. With slower green speeds I would suggest it is more than playable for the average player. I would also imagine that with the easier pin positions and humane green speeds ANGC would be in this bracket too.

ANGC is one of the most playable world class courses, if not the most. Certainly more playable than Dornoch, Muirfield, Carnoustie and the type.

[David Davis]

Someone mentioned the football starting XI and I think that is a good analogy. I think truly world-class is the Top Gun 'Best of the best' (no points for second place boys ).


By that logic, I defer to Mr. Coore, who said on the Fried Egg podcast that there are probably 50 courses where, on any given day, you could play the course and say 'This is the best course in the world'. With that in mind, I would say there are roughly 50 world class courses (Doak 10s and 9s), which would translate to roughly 4 or 5 courses in Scotland: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NB, Carnoustie and maybe Turnberry.

I just can't think World Class in Scotland and not have Prestwick, Ardfin, Castle Stuart, Cruden Bay and Kingsbarns on such a list. In fact, I have them above a few you mention above, NB not being one of them.    which should lessen the blow.

[BCrosby]

Niall -


A bit OT, but last night I read a Darwin piece on Silloth. He raved about it, in a way he reserved for only a few courses. Silloth has not been on my radar. It is now.


Bob

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()