[Niall C]

Any thoughts ?


Niall

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Old Course
Muirfield
R Dornoch
Carnoustie
North Berwick


five in total

[Michael Graham]

Niall,


How are you defining world class? World top 100, 200?


I'll add Prestwick to Mark's nominations.

[Rich Goodale]

Mark


5 isn't a bad number, but if I limited to that # I'd switch TOC and North Berwick for Troon and Turnberry.  I've always thought that Turnberry was world class and what I've heard of the recent changes is that is has been strengthened and not mutilated.  As to Dornoch, it will always be my favorite course and my home course, but I worry about the "renovations" which are underway.  Playing TOC and NB is always a fun experience, but the quality of the challenges involved with both of them are not consistently world class.  IMHO.




Rich

[John Mayhugh]

Playing TOC and NB is always a fun experience, but the quality of the challenges involved with both of them are not consistently world class.  IMHO.

I don't want to be part of a world where those two aren't considered among the best.  I don't think consistency is essential.  I'll always accept some flaws in return for wows.

[Adam Lawrence]

With apologies, Niall, this is a pretty silly question. Without some shared understanding of what 'world class' means then all the responses are just noise.

[Niall C]

Adam,


Fair comment. Perhaps part of the question is explaining what you think World Class means as Rich and John have touched upon. In truth what prompted the question was reading the economic case put forward in the planning application for Embo, and it mentions Scotland having 14 world class courses. I'd need to reread it to see if they included the proposed development in that number but I'm pretty sure there is no explanation given as to what they mean other than a general reference to course ratings in mags.


That said I was interested what others thought without that criteria presented as a given.


Niall

[MClutterbuck]

It seems the planning application for Embo then has defined World Class pretty precisely. Off the top of my head, this would mean somewhat more than 100 world class courses around the world if we consider major rankings, and probably about 100 world class courses worldwide on a consensus list here.


I would agree with 14-15 being a good number for Scotland with what I consider world class. What is world class to me? A course I would be excited to travel to and play alone, provided no sentimental value or connection to it.

[Keith Phillips]

By my definition of world class, 5 is surely too few for Scotland...I'd keep the 7 suggested by Mark and Rich and add 'moderns' Kingsbarns and Loch Lomond and 'classics' Gullane #1 and Gleneagles King's.  I could also be persuaded to add Renaissance and/or Western Gailes, and I haven't visited the courses in Aberdeen or Machrihanish.

[Sean_A]

The candidates for me and looking at what folks say thru lists...

Castle Stuart
N Berwick
TOC
Prestwick
Gleneagles Kings
Kingsbarns
Dornoch
Elie
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen
Renaissance
Trump Aberdeen
Muirfield
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Troon

But there is world class and there is world class...big difference between top 30 world and top 100 world.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Niall -- OK then -- I will offer you a definition of world class that (unlike those based around course rankings) has the virtue of being at least objectively based.


A world class golf course is one that attracts a not negligible number of people from outside its immediate area (however you want to define that) to come and play it.

[mike_malone]

Adam,


When I look at Sean’s list I figure I can play Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen on the way but wouldn’t plan to go to only one of them from Philly. So the trip must be just to that one course for it to be great. I did this for TOC , Ballybunion, Oakmont, NGLA and RCD.

[Sean_A]

Adam,


When I look at Sean’s list I figure I can play Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen on the way but wouldn’t plan to go to only one of them from Philly. So the trip must be just to that one course for it to be great. I did this for TOC , Ballybunion, Oakmont, NGLA and RCD.

Man...that is a tough standard.  So you crossed an ocean on individual trips to see TOC, Ballybunion and RDC? 


Ciao

[Niall C]

Adam


The cynic in me thinks that what attracts people isn't necessarily the "world class" course but the hype and the advertising that people like you are to an extent responsible for 


Niall

[John Connolly]

This crew could complicate a bowl of ice cream. It's just a provocative question requiring a simple offering of one's opinion. Trying to define "world class" completely misses the point. It's a "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" type of interrogatory - once defined, it's lost its meaning.

[Mike Hendren]

What do those courses listed thus far have that Brora doesn't?

Mike

[Peter Pallotta]

What do those courses listed thus far have that Brora doesn't?
Mike

Is that a rhetorical question, Mike? 
A few years ago I played a classic Top 10 in America.
A few years later I played a modern, say, Top  40 in Michigan.
Last month I played a golden age course that doesn’t crack the Top 100 in Ontario.
I have to leave others to rank/rate them as ‘fields of play’. But as far as ‘personal experiences’ goes, I’d rate them a 9, a 7 and an 8, respectively.
In short: A heck of a lot closer together than the official rankings would suggest.
I have no idea what, as a personal experiences, I would rate any of, let’s say, GB&I’s consensus “world class” golf courses;
but I’d bet they wouldn’t rate all that much higher than Formby or Notts or Sherwood Forest or Woking etc.
But this is all another subject/question entirely.
It’s a kind of “what would we value most in golf courses if airplanes had never been invented?” kind of question.

[mike_malone]

Adam,


When I look at Sean’s list I figure I can play Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen on the way but wouldn’t plan to go to only one of them from Philly. So the trip must be just to that one course for it to be great. I did this for TOC , Ballybunion, Oakmont, NGLA and RCD.

Man...that is a tough standard.  So you crossed an ocean on individual trips to see TOC, Ballybunion and RDC? 


Ciao

If those courses weren’t on the trip there would not have been a trip.

[Thomas Dai]

What do those courses listed thus far have that Brora doesn't?
Mike

Bigger budgets, more staff, higher green fees, swankier clubhouses and visitors inclined to wear loud clothing.
I wonder how many posting herein would rather play Brora than some on the list!
Atb

[JESII]

If it were simply 5, that would be disappointing...


I suspect from my perspective it would be well into the teens or twenties but simply do not have the experience.

[Mark_Fine]

And we all wonder why Golf Digest and every other list is so varied    This is soooo subjective.  I would wager that even a group as knowledgable and astute about golf architecture as we have here couldn't agree on just the top two courses in Scotland let alone how many world class courses they have. 

[Tom_Doak]

The candidates for me and looking at what folks say thru lists...

Castle Stuart
N Berwick
TOC
Prestwick
Gleneagles Kings
Kingsbarns
Dornoch
Elie
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen
Renaissance
Trump Aberdeen
Muirfield
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Troon

But there is world class and there is world class...big difference between top 30 world and top 100 world.

Ciao

If I had to guess, I'd say these were the 14 they were referring to, with Elie and Renaissance not included, because they don't attract American tourists.  Why that of all things should be the standard for good golf in Scotland beggars belief, but of course they were really talking about $$$ and not golf.

[jeffwarne]

The phrase "world class" makes a course about as attractive to me as visiting a teacher with a "state of the art" teaching center....
or about as revealing as adding a "y" to the word "class"


There must be 50 plus courses in Scotland worth crossing an ocean for-easily.

[Mark Pearce]

Niall -- OK then -- I will offer you a definition of world class that (unlike those based around course rankings) has the virtue of being at least objectively based.


A world class golf course is one that attracts a not negligible number of people from outside its immediate area (however you want to define that) to come and play it.

That's just silly.  According to your definition at one point The Belfry was World Class.  The quality of a golf course cannot depend on the strength of its marketing.


In any sport, when the expression "world class" is used the tendency always seems to be to go with far too small a number.  In soccer being "world class" doesn't mean you get into a mythical World XI, it's enough to be at a level where the discussion of your name in that group isn't silly.  I'm quite happy with the concept that there are more than 100 world class golf courses in the world., though 14 feels a little high for Scotland and 5 feels too few.

[Ira Fishman]

There are north of 32,000 golf courses in the world.  If the top 1% counts as World Class, that translates to 320 courses.  I have no idea of how many of them are in Scotland because we are not making our first trip until next year, but I would guess it is at least 10% of the 1%.


Ira

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