Access to play golf courses

[TEPaul]

I'm terribly sorry but access to play golf courses that's attempted through this wonderful golf website seems to be getting out of hand.

I'm more than willing to consider hosting anyone (Golfclubatlas participants or otherwise) to my own golf club but I will no longer attempt to arrange access to courses for people I really don't know personally with hosts at other clubs I do know personally and sometimes very well with people neither I nor the potential host have never met.

I'm very sorry about this but I do wonder if potential guests truly understand all that's sometimes involved here. I would suggest for easier access that the people interested in access attempt to get to know those they ask in other more direct ways first--certainly including by telephone or direct meeting.

Sorry about this--I do hope you understand--sometimes things seem to get out of control!

[Jeff Fortson]

So Tom, can you help me get on Pine Valley?  

Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

For you Jeff---anything! And, incidentally, we've spoken (directly) in the past in my recollection about other things to do with golf and architecture and not one of them was regarding access to any course!

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

Does that include bermudagrass courses?    

Joe

[TEPaul]

Joe;

Can you give me a few weeks to think about that?  

[A_Clay_Man]

Tepaul- Would it be bad form, if you, In the interest of full disclosure, with principles similar to peer review, if you please elaborate on what must be a horrible story to cause a post like this, or, list all those who have tried or are trying to manipulate you into "getting them on" without proper introduction?

On the bright side, you need not list or tell any stories about anyone trying to get you off.

 

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Thats a shame that people are taking advantage of your generosity. I personally have been the beneficiary of many kindnesses through gentlemen on this site, but I have tried to get out and meet GCA guys and see great architecture, and have been fortunate to have done both.
   People trying to gain access is one thing I worry about, so I am careful who I tell about this site for that reason.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Could you rephrase that to make your point more clear or if you choose not to do that then yes it's bad form!  

[paul cowley]

..tom ,its probably not a good time [but you brought it up]....i have yet to be able to get on fernandina beach national muni whatever ......maybe a word from the wise one ?

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I'm disappointed you would feel it necessary to make this post.  

[TEPaul]

EdG:

Maybe what I'm saying isn't that clear to some. I'd consider anytime hosting anyone (particularly from this website) at my own golf club. It's the indirect access to clubs I do not belong to through friends I have in other clubs that's beginning to concern me. If there's anyone on here who doesn't understand that or takes me to task for mentioning it then I'll be bluntly honest in admitting that my interest in ever arranging access for them at my club or other clubs will be greatly diminished.

[TEPaul]

"Tom, I'm disappointed you would feel it necessary to make this post."

Well, Bill, I'm very sorry that your disappointed that I felt it necessary to make this thread post but I do. Possibly it's a loaded post to see what the responses might be but in all honesty if they turn out to be totally negative it will definitely influence my longterm interest in this website which for both me and others may be a very good thing!  

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

Most should understand what you're saying. It's not too difficult to imagine that you are called/ im'd/ emailed a lot about "helping out". If anyone responds negatively, the reenforcements will come alongside and help with the lynching.

Courtesy is one of the foundations of golf. We should all try to exercise some at all times!

Tom, btw....do you "know" anything about the mayor in your fair city?.....after the rpurd debacle, I figure you and electronic surveillance are synonomous!

JOe

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, my post was intended only to express that I am disappointed that you feel your hospitality has been abused. No one wants to feel that way.  One of the things that attracts me most to GCA is that we are many who share a common enthusiasm about classical golf courses and a traditional approach to golf.  ie no back-turned baseball caps, no hats in clubhouses, walk whenever possible.  Many of our group are privileged to be members of many of the clubs whose courses we admire.  I sincerely hope that that potential access does not become an issue among our group.  I think I understand your problem and I guess the only answer is discretion of all concerned.  I admire your demonstrated enthusiasm about the game we all love; please don't let any specific problems dissuade you from continuing to share your knowledge, experience and enthusiasm with your GCA supporters.

One of my joies de vivre of late has been meeting, mingling and playing with our GCA'ers.  It will only get better.

[TEPaul]

"Tom, my post was intended only to express that I am disappointed that you feel your hospitality has been abused".

Bill:

I knew just what you were saying. My hospitality hasn't been abused exactly---I just can't get into all this complication any more. I have friends at other places and it's just real hard, almost crazy really to put pressure on them to do some of these types of things. I just wonder how much some understand those things or even care. My hospitality is still intact, I hope---anyone can ask me to host them at my own golf club. If I say no then they can hold something against me as far as hospitality is concerned---but my point is I'm not the host at clubs I don't belong to but have friends and acquaintences at!

[Bill_McBride]

So I guess the final message is, "hang in there, buddy!"  And don't let anybody abuse your hospitality.  There aren't many GCA Gods and we need you guys to be happy guys.

Let's get down to basics.  Meet my brother and I in St Andrews in May.  Lay down your greens fee $$ and let's tee it up!  

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- Stemming from my days in the trading pit, one of the subtleties that make an "open outcry" system work is the disemination of information. If someone acted inapproprietly and outside of the rules it becomes necessary to let everyone else know who, how and when. After awhile it was common knowledge of who you needed to double check and who you needed to have someone else as a witness initial your trading card. With so much money at stake, credibility was/is an imperative.

With this open forum having many simalarities to the "pit" as far as who ever is going to open their mouth better be willing to back it up and honor their commitment, I was under the impression that something nafarious had happened. But after re-reading your post, you did make it clear that it was more about your implementation at other clubs that was "getting out of hand".

I hope you think about this "full disclosure" method of rooting out bad apples, in an open forum, as information that will be considerate of all others who follow.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Are you asking me to list here who I may be thinking about? You know I can't or won't do that---don't you?

[Dan Kelly]

My hospitality is still intact, I hope---anyone can ask me to host them at my own golf club. If I say no then they can hold something against me as far as hospitality is concerned---but my point is I'm not the host at clubs I don't belong to but have friends and acquaintences at!

Tom I --

There's a pretty obvious answer here -- a win/win deal for everyone concerned!

You just need to belong to all of those clubs you don't yet belong to!

Happy to be of service.

Dan

P.S. It was Patrick, wasn't it? You can tell us!

[Jeff Fortson]

Tom,

I think some of these people are at this website by mistake.  I think they thought they were at GolfClubAccess.com and accidentally ended up here.  Don't hold it against them.

Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

DanK:

If I did belong to all the clubs people ask me to arrange access to I'd be glad to consider it but that isn't the way it is. If any of you guys can figure out a way for me to belong to those clubs without paying an arm and leg for it I'd be more than happy to considering hosting any time.

As for Pat Mucci---he's a real good friend of mine and I'd host Pat at my own club any time he asked or try my damnedest to arrange access for him through anyone I knew at any golf club anytime!

[Dan Kelly]

As for Pat Mucci---he's a real good friend of mine and I'd host Pat at my own club any time he asked or try my damnedest to arrange access for him through anyone I knew at any golf club anytime!

Tom I --

I was ... joking.

Perhaps I should have included a line of   ;Ds.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Paul:

You are under no obligation to help anyone gain access to any golf club, including your own. The purpose of Golfclubatlas is to engage in golf architecture discussion and/or to learn from the wonderful course profiles and interviews Ran has done.

If friendships develop and access results, that's fine. But, people who blatantly use the site for the purpose of access only undermine the discussion group. On more than one occasion, people I know who are extremely well traveled in the golf world - and quite knowledgable about golf architecture - have told me they will never post here primarily because they are members of prominent clubs and don't want strangers bugging them for access to their course.

As Jeff suggests, we don't need the site gaining a reputation for being Golfclubaccess.

Tom, I'll probably piss some people off for taking such a hard line on this, but really it is only common courtesy. Requests for access should be done privately - not on a post - and should usually follow the establishment of some kind of relationship.

One other point: I'd take a different view of someone who would like help to study a golf course rather than play it. That's a reasonable test of whether the person is really serious about learning golf architecture and I'd be more inclined to help out if I could.

[TEPaul]

Dan quoted me:

"As for Pat Mucci---he's a real good friend of mine and I'd host Pat at my own club any time he asked or try my damnedest to arrange access for him through anyone I knew at any golf club anytime!"
 
 

Tom I --

I was ... joking.

DanK:

Did you think I didn't know that? The secondary point is what does Pat know and what doesn't Pat know? But the primary point is what do you guys think Pat knows or doesn't know?  

[TEPaul]

Tim Weiman said;

"One other point: I'd take a different view of someone who would like help to study a golf course rather than play it. That's a reasonable test of whether the person is really serious about learning golf architecture and I'd be more inclined to help out if I could."

Tim--now that's a super excellent point you made there. I'm one who in many cases would prefer to just go quietly look at a golf course that's of real interest and forgo playing it, at least at first--and possibly second or third. Some on here think that's bizarre or not the way to understand golf architecture. Well, it is for me.

As most on here understand, because I post so much and sometimes so early, I'm an early riser, a farmer type guy and to me getting on a golf course at sunrise and slowly looking at all the things I might miss or not notice if I was playing it is a true joy to me and very educational. One of the finest days I can remember was getting out on Riviera at sunrise and walking very slowly through the golf course. Anyone knows who officiates that if you get out on a course ahead of the first time you have the course to yourself basically---plus you're bound to run into the super or the crew and learn things you never would otherwise!

Great point Tim! I've showed up at sunrise with more crews than you can imagine and that kind of access is basically no problem at all. But how many people really want to do that?