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BCowan

Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews New
« on: November 06, 2017, 06:37:02 PM »

1.    Crystal Downs (Mackenzie)             9.34    (15 plays)
2.    Oakland Hills S   (Ross/RTJ)            8.59    (16)
3.    Greywalls     (DeVries)                     8.32     8
4.    Kingsley        (DeVries)                    8.23     (13)
5.    Orchard Lake (Alison/Foster)         7.93     (13) 
6.    Franklin Hills  (Ross/Prichard)        7.9       (15)
7.    Loop Black    (Doak)                         7.88      (6)
8.    Indianwood Old  (Reid)                    7.27      (15)
9.    Meadowbrook (Staples/WPJ)           7.13      (6)
10.  Arcadia Bluffs (Henderson)              7.02      (13)
11.  Lost Dunes (Doak)                             7           (5)
12.  UofM (Maxwell/Mackenzie)              6.8        (15)
13.  Battle Creek (WPJ)                            6.71      (9)
14.  Forest Dunes (Weiskopf)                  6.69      (14)
15.  Barton Hills  (Ross/Prichard)           6.66      (14)
16. CC of Detroit (Alison/Foster/Doak)  6.58      (11)
16. Bloomfield Hills (Colt/Foster)           6.58      (9)
18. Belvedere    (Watson)                        6.55      (14)
19. Oakland Hills N (Ross/RTJ/Forest)   6.35      (14)
20. Birmingham (Bendelow/Hepner)      6.24      (9)
21. Point O Woods  (RTJ)                         6.13      (6)
22. Radrick Farms   (Dye)                        5.84      (13)
23. Muskegon   (Ross/B. Matthews)       5.8         (5)
24. Grosse Ile  (Ross)                              5.72       (11)
25. Detroit GC S  (Ross)                           5.55       (6)
26. Wuskowhan (Smith/Henderson)       5.5         (5)
26. Detroit GC N (Ross)                            5.5          8
28. Pilgrims Run (DeVries)                       5.43       (5)
29. Red Run   (Bendelow/WPJ?)              5.4          (9)
30. Plum Hollow (Alison)                          5.38        (11)
31. Flint    (WPJ/DeVries)                         5.33        (6)
32. Western   (Ross)                                  5.2          (6)
33. Boyne (heather) (RTJ)                         5.16        (9)
34. Treetops (rtj)   (rjt)                             5.1          (6)
35. WV black forest   (Doak)                     4.98         8
36. Bay Harbor (l&q) (Hills)                      4.9            8
37. Treetops (smith)  (smith)                   4.87         (9)
38. Tullymore  (Engh)                                4.86         (7)
39. CC of Lansing (langford/b matthews)4.81         (9)
40. Boyne (ross)  (?)                                 4.7           (7)


Courses with 1 play short of getting ranked. 
Angels Crossing 
Lakewood Gailes
Loop Red 
Stoatin Brae 
Cedar River   
Port Huron  


This 2017 List is dedicated in the memory of Peter Pratt

The 2017 list was made by 21 Michigan GCAers-  (Ben Cowan, Gary Nelson, Peter Pratt, Tony Gholz, Brian Sleeman, Tom Doak, Dave Wigler, Mike Boehm, Aaron McMaster, Jeff Bergeron, Matt Bielawa, Jim Dales, Ross Miller, Ryan Taylor, Russ Arbuthnot, Ken Fry, Jon Adkins, Kirk Dodge, Craig Moore, Mike Bodo, and Mike Schott).  There was no parameters set on voting.  Each course had to be played by 5 different voters or more.  We used averages and 1 high and 1 low score were thrown out this year.  This list encourages our own group to play more courses in Michigan they might not have given a thought too.  It's just as fun to start at the bottom and work your way up.

Crystal DownsThe story goes that Alister Mackenzie was not particularly enthused to be diverting his travel from California to Georgia to head to this remote destination on the shores of Lake Michigan, but that when he caught his first glimpse of the incredible sleeping Bear Dunes upon which the course were to sit, his attitude improved dramatically.  Those dunes provide the landscape for an unparalleled golf experience in the region, with nary an even lie to be found and creativity at a premium on the similarly bold contours of the greens set into their surroundings so naturally and beautifully.  The front nine, the 10th, and the 18th spill out over the open rolling terrain, while the second nine loops out and back through a rugged transition area (home of the 11th and 17th) and gently swaying stretch of land atop the bluff of Lake Michigan.  Playing to a par of 70, one would be advised to abandon their scorecard concerns during a tour of ''The Downs'', and instead devote their focus to the pure joy of interacting with this incredible land served so well by golf's greatest course architect.- Brian Sleeman

Oakland Hills (South)- There is a famous saying that if you need to make an argument that someone belongs in the Hall of Fame, they don't.  Another says that HOF's should have two wings.  One for all the Craig Biggio, Jerome Bettis, and Mitch Richmond's of the world and another Pantheon Wing for the Willie Mays, Joe Montana's, and Michael Jordan's!  Golf course rankings are much the same.  There is no difference other than taste between the 50th and 120th ranked course in the US, but there is a Pantheon Room for the best of the best.  There is no perfect way to describe it; you just know when you are playing one. Oakland Hills South belongs in the Pantheon Room.  Your first impression is how big and bold everything is.  The property feels massive and the greens are beyond treacherous.  Crystal Downs is maybe the only other midwest course with a better green complexes then Oakland South.  The course demands complete attention for every shot and there may not be a better course anywhere for fairway bunkering and framing.  Through 14 holes, you are dazzled with the variety and demands of the course.  Then you hit the closing stretch.   There may not be a better four hole sequence in golf then 15-18 at OHCC South.  Every tee and approach shot requires absolute precision and just ask Davis Love and Tom Lehman about the challenges of the putting surfaces down the stretch.  Ben Hogan affectionately called OHCC South ''The Monster''.  Anyone who has played it just calls in amazing!- Dave Wigler
Greywalls-  Is rugged, adventurous, thrilling, and - above all- fun.  There is simply no other golf course I've encountered or heard of to rival its dramatic setting.  The front nine routes the player around, between, and over several rocky outcroppings and bold fairway contours and rewards them with multiple expansive views of Lake Superior!  The back nine begins along the top of the property before diving into a sandy valley for the bulk of its holes, providing a relatively mild interlude before climbing back to the top on the 16th and 17th and racing down one last time on the 18th.  Its comparisons to an exhilarating roller coaster are entirely apt, and upon reaching the bottom, one can't help but want to rush right back to the 1st tee and start it all over again.  The architecture matches up beautifully, with rugged edges and bold contours rewarding creativity and inspiring awe.  It's and incredibly memorable golf experience unlike any other and absolutely should not be missed.  - Brian Sleeman
Kingsley Club - KC, is a modern masterpiece designed by Mike DeVries that spits in the face of its detractors.  Set in a sandy area of Kingsley, MI just south of Traverse City lies one of the best modern golf courses in the world.  KC can best be described as burly but does not lack for substance and/or finesse.  The detractors of KC believe that the course is too penal and in some ways overdone.  I vehemently argue these points as KC was routed over the natural landscape with very little earth moving and takes the golfer perfectly through the rolling hills of Northern Michigan.
KC has a very interesting and diverse set of Par 3's, 4's, and 5's.  I would argue that the collection and variety of Par 3's rival nearly any in the world.  I also believe that KC has one of the best collections of green complexes within the Top 100 modern golf courses.  Holes of note are #2, #8, #13, and #15.  #2 is a devilish short Par 3 that requires the golfer to factor in the wind and the visual deception of this creatively done short hole.  #8 is a medium length Par 4 that requires some thought off the tee.  Do I lay up short of the bunkers straight away or take on the tiny sliver of fairway on the left or right of the cluster of natural and rugged bunkers.  The approach is uphill to a green complex that drops off on both sides.  #9 from the west tee is one of the most controversial holes on the golf course.  A short Par 3 that plays downhill presents plenty of problems for the golfer that misses left with a left pin and long with a right pin.  If long to a back right pin, one must exhibit nerves of steel for a chance at par.  #13 is a short and drivable Par 4 that has been debated ad nauseam on the GCA DB.  any hole creating that much discussion deserves a spot among the elite.  #15 is another controversial hole that moves slightly left but requires the golfer to hit a high long iron or fairway wood to an elevated green set over on a hill to the right.  I have come to appreciate this hole and respect the difficulty it poses as the golfer is rewrded with a short and fairly benign Par 5 17th hole.     In closing, I would suggest that KC evaluate the possibility of flipping the 9's (i.e. #10 becomes #1 and #9 becomes #18) #9 at KC represents all that is good with KC- devilish, exhilarating, quirky, difficult, etc.  Flipping #9 to #18 would present the kind of finishing hole that KC deserves!  Every play at KC unlocks something new and I can't think of a course in the US that I would rather play on a day-in and day-out basis.  For me, this is the #1 criteria that I use to evaluate a golf course. -Ryan Taylor


Orchard Lake
- Is the album that you'd never heard, but is instantly your new favorite album.  After you finish the front nine, there's a pause for a reflective walk across Old Orchard Trail.  It's like flipping the album from Side A to Side B.  You think to yourself, ''No way can the second side be better than the first.''  Then it is.  The par 3's are very strong, but the whole course comes together as a unit.  I really can't recall a weak spot.  Course conditions were easily a ten the day we played, and I suspect they are like that most days.  I can only hope that I get many more rounds at OLCC because I really look forward to seeing things during those rounds that I missed the first time around.- Russ Arbuthnot
Franklin Hills- It really shines with the one shooters.  The set of par 3's are the best in the area IMO.  I have  played few course that have as many amazing/world class holes as Franklin does.  The 2nd has great strategic choices off the tee with a fabulous green tilted back to front with a false front.  The 9th is an amazing par 3 that is most exhilarating when the pin is in the left side of the green.  The 13th is one of my all time favorite drive and pitch holes and is a beautiful example of a Volcano hole.  The greens at Franklin are very good.  Some greens have very good tilt, some with bold internal contours, and other ones with great false fronts.  A walk at Franklin is not to be missed.  - Ben Cowan


Loop Black- hold tight


Indianwood Old- Is one of my favorites to play.  The terrain is excellent, the vistas looking over the native fescues are spectacular and if the wind is blowing, it will test all aspects of your game.  It has an excellent amount of quirk, like the short 9th hole and severely canted fairway on the 2nd hole and a wild 18th green, mixed with strong Par 4's like #4, #12, and #16.  The green surfaces have a slight tendency to be redundant but not enough to affect the overall quality and test of golf.  It's a must play for anyone who loves the game. - Aaron McMaster


Meadowbrook- Hold tight
Arcadia Bluffs- Lake Michigan, sand dunes, and golf.  It's hard to go wrong with that combination.  Where many great courses are subtle, Arcadia is dramatic.  The most memorable holes are certainly the ones on the edge or playing down to the edge of the lake. The par three 13th is as thrilling as you'll find anywhere without the need to rely on server elevation change or other tricks.  Arcadia has maybe the best 19th hole view in the whole world.  The way the sunset lights the course and melts into the lake is one of the most peaceful and serene experiences out there.
Lost Dunes-  Is built on heaving terrain astride I-94 near the Indiana border.  (The highway really isn't a big deal, except making for a longer walk.)  The greens are crazy wild, even by Doak standards.  Yes, I had the obligatory 4-putt on #4.  The Par 3's and par 5's aren't in a class with other Doak courses I've played (Pacific Dunes, High Pointe, and Black Forest), but the Par 4's are varied, wonderfully bunkered, and tons of fun. - Peter Pratt
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 04:56:50 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 06:38:18 PM »

University of Michigan- Is the central park for Golf in Ann Arbor.  To be blessed with this bold and intimate piece of land so close to downtown is wonderful.  The routing choices made are very interesting due to a ridge running through the course.  Some great restoration work is being done now with green reclaiming and tree removal.  To simplify what is great about UofM, is the moment one leave the 18th green they can't wait to hit the 1st tee again.  Fun is also the word one thinks of when describing UofM, even if one's game is off it has enough balance of interesting holes to keep one in the game.  Nothing would please me more, then for the UofM course to be restored to its former glory. - Ben Cowan



Battle Creek- Passes all of my tests as a fine golf course.  Fantastic green complexes, par is definitely defended at the green.  Beautiful rolling terrain, a wonderful walk in the park.  Play every day and not get bored, most definitely.  BCCC is as close to an original Willie Park Jr as I think you are going to find.  Given that you have a former Super as GM, he and the Super have superbly restored the green complexes and shot values without spending a fortune.  I'd classify BCCC as the most underrated golf course in Michigan!  A must play for those that love Golden Age Golf. - Jeff Bergeron



Forest Dunes- Ohio State Buckeye Tom Weiskopf brought all of his skills to the table when he built Forest Dunes in the Wolverine State.  Known for building great short Par 4's, Weiskopf didn't disappoint in building the fun and strategic 6th and 17th holes.  Moreover, the land was so good that Weiskopf didn't stop at just 18 holes, he built a fun one-shot bye hole that has a Riviera-style bunker in the middle of the green to settle bets at the end.  Forest Dunes is a great blend of tree-lined fairways, common in Northern Michigan, and exposed sandy areas, less common in the state. The design winds its way back and forth, taking the player from narrow holes to more open and exposed holes and then back again.   The back nine crescendos with several good holes before finishing with a fun match-settling holes such as #15, #17, and #18 which are open to birdies or better, but can bring bogeys or worse into the picture as well if the player doesn't excute.  Many people play Forest Dunes on the way to somewhere else, but now that Tom Doak's reversible course, The Loop, opened in 2016, Forest Dunes will likely become more of a destination restort, and will get even more attention and play.  While it's a bit off the beaten path, Forest Dunes is clearly worth experiencing-- one tip though... BRING BUG SPRAY!- Matt Bielawa


Barton Hills - Like many courses in SE Michigan, it's another Donald Ross Gem (1919), highlighted by a diverse set of undulated greens uniquely fitting the holes they lay on.  I consider the course largely a 2nd shot golf course as the fairways are generous and hazards generally not in play off the tee.  It's a course where angles into greens really means something if you want to score as just hitting the green doesn't always equate to good scoring opportunities.  While the course has a series of long Par 4's from the back tee, I consider the short Par 4, 4th and 12th to be the most enjoyable and interesting holes.  They can be easy birdies if played correctly, sometimes with only a long iron and wedge, but often times a misplaced approach ends in 3 putts or impossible up and downs.  The course has been much improved in recent years with a Ron Prichard ''Restoration'' with tree removal programs that is opened up the views of the course as well as improved Turf and play-ability.  - Dustin Ferrell


Bloomfield Hills-  Is one of only 2 Harry Colt courses left in the US!  The strength of BH is the set of par 3's.  The 9th, 11th, and 17th are really great one shooter and can match any in the city!  The course has done a semi complete restoration with Keith Foster a few years back removing over 700 trees and re-grassing the greens.  The course sits on beautiful rolling terrain.  The 10th and the 15th are very strong drive and pitch holes.  The 10th gives a golfer many options off the tee due to the change in elevation throughout the hole, while #15 temps the long ball hitters to drive the green.  Due to technology many ignorant flat bellies may overlook BHCC, but it gives a good test to most and its architecture is very good!- Ben Cowan


CC of Detroit- After a decade of dying greens, bunkers redone by Foster, greens and tees rebuilt by Doak, a new 17th green relocated by Doak, and a thousand trees removed by both Doak and Foster, the CCD course is as close to Charles Hugh Alison's 1926 vision as it has been since WWII. Certainly Michigan's best and one of the country's best flat land courses, the CCD uses its shallow lake bottom sand ridges to good advantage.  Doak has eliminated Trent Jones' 1954 aircraft carrier tee's and has relocated them to original directional positions.  The back tees are now are placed into the existing grade where the low ridges obscure the landing areas as originally intended by Alison.  The result is a wide course that exacts a penalty for tee shots to the wrong side of fairways for the good players while allowing the average golfer to enjoy their afternoon.  The tree removal highlights the remaining specimen trees and they help define the wonderful parkland course.- Tony Gholz


Belvedere-  Is classy, but not up-tight.  Laid-back, but not sloppy.  From the opening elevated tee shot to the putts on the home hole, it's a GREAT walk.  Suitable for all kinds of players and equipment.  Stand-out holes are the excellent Par 4 7th, the Par 3 8th with its infinity green and lone tree, the short Par 4 11th and it's model green, the 12th with its rolling fairway, and the raised but shallow-greened 16th.  Sleeper holes are the half Par 4th, the dog legged 6th, and the bunkerless Par 3 17th.  Three (three!) of Belvedere's holes were featured in George Thomas' ''Golf Architecture in America'' book.  There should be more courses and clubs like Belvedere.  Simply put, Belvedere is what's good about Golf!- Russ Arbuthnot


Oakland Hills (North)- Although clearly the second ranked course on the property, the North Course at OHCC (built in 1923 six years after the South) had hosted several top tier Michigan tournaments, including the State Amateur, prior to acting as the second qualifying course for this year's US Amateur.  If resistance scoring rings a bell it stayed within a stroke and a half margin of the south, mostly due to the greens, but if played at full length the North would have been the equal, or a little longer, than the South.  The course aesthetics today are mainly those of the Jones family as Trent redid it shortly after his work on the South for the '51 Open, think aircraft carrier tees and high lipped bunkering.  He and Rees have made changes to it over the decades since, mostly for drainage as well as the use of the course as the practice, parking, and commercial staging areas for the big tournaments on the South.  The combination of the 1st and 10th tees on the highest point of the property to make a mega practice tee for the Majors is a striking tee platform and allows for expansive views over the property.  The drainage solution to the swampy areas of the back nine, along the north side of the property, have an unmistakable Medinah #2 feel and were completed recently at several million dollars of expense.   That said, the original 1923 Ross magic in routing a course on a tight (tighter than the expansive South) property is well in evidence and still shines today.  Despite several back and forth parallel holes on relatively flat land, where the land rolls it is well used, with several holes in the excellent category.  I include the par-3 4th, and especially the par-4 17th and 18th holes, as first class on very interesting land.  The 4th is an uphill shot to a terraced green situated on one of the high points of the property where the wind blows free.  The one tree on the hole is a large specimen oak out of play to the left, but it beautifully frames the view.  The hole would fit well at Braid's Gleneagles Kings Course.  The 17th is a strong uphill par-4 beautiful bunkered against a natural hill on the left in the landing area with OB right.  The second shot is to another plateau green back on the higher end of the property.  The hole was considered tough enough by the USGA that the new back tee was not used during the tournament, however even the big hitters had to contend with the single fairway bunker.  The 18th hole is a shorter par-4 fitted in a saddle between two more natural hills.  It allows the long hitter an opportunity to hit driver while the average golfer playing from the member tees has a chance to hit a mid to short iron to the well bunkered green. - Tony Gholz
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 09:32:18 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 06:38:35 PM »
Birmingham -BCC was originally routed and designed by Tom Bendelow and recently renovated and polished by Bruce Hepner. New fairways, greens, and native areas have grassed.  Over 1,000 trees were removed as part of the renovation process.  BCC now deserves a spot among the elites of Metro Detroit Golf.  BCC has been blessed with great rolling land, a perfect variety of Par 3's (#7, #11, etc.), outstanding brute but beautiful Par 4's (#9), strategic short Par 4's (#5 and #16) and a really fun set of Par 5's (#14 and #18).- Ryan Taylor

Point O' Woods- The mile drive from Roslyn Road leads you to the Frank Lloyd Wright inspired clubhouse reminiscent of the Ina Morris Harper house in nearby St Joseph.  Home of the Western Amateur for 30 years, the largest attended amateur golf tournament in the nation, it hosted many future tour players and the list of champions is much more impressive than that of the US Amateur.  A list that includes, Ryan Moore, Tiger Woods, Justin Leonard, and Phil Michelson, and even a couple guys the GCA crew knows like, Ben Crenshaw and Tom Weiskopf.
     It starts out with a benign two shooter with a huge fairway no one should miss, it gets your round started and gets play moving.  After that, it's a back ad forth battle with RTJ stepping on your throat with narrow demanding tree shots, huge bunkers, and huge greens separated into segments demanding an accurate approach shot.  Occasionally RTJ takes his foot off your throat so you can grab a quick breath by giving you a short hole where you feel you can score, like the short 8th after playing the demanding 6th and 7th.     The course is a great walk where you can use every club in your bag.  The features are on a grand scale, the 12th green is over a quarter acre and the 13th tee is 150 yards long!  Technology has changed the Point over the years, not only golf equipment but Turf equipment and technology making even a course built on horrible soil play more firm and fast so there are more Eagle opportunities than ever before.  Overall its a spectacular golf course that you can play day after day and not tire of it.  They need to keep the chainsaws running.
Some highlights are the short Par 5 14th and the short Par 4 16th.  #14 is great short Par 5 that is reachable in two from the correct tee.  The 2nd shot is semi blind and downhill to one of the best green complexes on the course.  The green has great front to back to front movement with some neat little shelves.  #16 is a short dogleg right Par that brings the golfer gradually up a large hill.  The golfer will need to make a decision off the tee as the cross bunkers on the edge of the dogleg present a few options.  Do I hit out to the left or do I take on the grouping of bunkers to leave a shorter approach?  The approach is then straight uphill into a green and approach area that slopes from back to front.  If the golf course is playing firm and fast, an approach shot hit short with spin will come back down toward the golfer.  The green complex has some nice movement and makes for a devilish little hole late in the round.   The staff and golf ocurse are top notch and as BCC new grasses mature and grow, it is sure to receive the recognition it now deserves. -Terry Poley


Radrick Farms- Built in the early 60's UM's other course is one of Pete Dye's first designs.  A laid back Ann Arbor vibe and tucked away is a great big piece of rolling property makes for an unexpected pleasure on what is a demanding test. On their first visit most people remark "I can't believe this place is here''.  The elevated fall-away tee shots on #9 and  #15 were thrilling when I first encountered them even though they eventually became a cliche in Northern Michigan.  The 8th and 9th are fun short holes, but you had better make your move before you get the 13th- hold on from there to the finish.  I love the secluded setting of the last 3 holes down in the valley. - Jim Dales

Muskegon-  The land at Muskegon is to die for.  The course sits on around 100 acre sand dune with a lake below the property.  The fairways have beautiful micro undulations in them.  On a sunny fall day the course has a majestic feel to it.  The 10th green is the only original Ross green left but the others do a great job of blending in or resembling a Ross green.  There are some nice dome shaped greens such as the 1st and 18th holes.  The course needs more tree removal still.  It has beautiful fescue areas throughout the property.  The club has done a nice job of showcasing early club photos throughout the clubhouse.  I'd really love to see this gem restored and tweaked.  The course is now owned by a couple of members and is doing well in a very rough area.- Ben Cowan



Grosse Ile-  This gem located on an island in the Detroit River is not to be missed.  The best green complexes in the area IMO and there is some stiff competition.  The bold ridges and spines running through the greens make 2 putting a task.  Ross simply outdid himself on the greens and these should be studied.  The downfall is the course plays soft most days and it could benefit greatly by some drainage and sand capping work.  The soil is heavy but the routing makes great use of the rolling terrain.  Greens sit on beautiful natural shelve on many holes.  Tree removal is desperately needed as DZ field goal driving is common for most tee shots as a means to protect old man par.  In any city these are the gems I look for, if ever in the Detroit area give this one a go!  - Ben Cowan



Detroit GC S- Similar to Oakland Hills N, the South at DGC has long been considered it's ''other'' course. With Mr Hepner's well-considered renovation the South can now be considered the more honest Ross original.  Without the pressure on the North of all the 1950's to 90's changes by RTJ among others to make it tournament ready the Ross routing and greens have been kept intact on the South course.  Hepner has reworked the bunkers, made a few subtle adds to green perimeters, some judicious tree removals, and several minimalist scale Ross like moundings (perhaps original?) to create a wonderful members course.  Two or three new tees have also taken advantage of the suble ridges to create new views of the 100 year old holes. - Tony Gholz
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 09:31:27 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Ron Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 09:35:58 AM »
Great list with good detail, I've personally played 10 of the courses and would agree with the ranking for the courses I've played.   The diversity of golf across the state is really impressive and aided by some excellent terrain.  Kingsley, Orchard, Meadowbrook are my top three I have played and offer very different and unique experiences.  The destination options in Michigan are getting stronger every year and offer some truly excellent public golf.  It will be interesting to see how the list moves as these new options mature.


Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 02:59:40 PM »
I wonder where Arcadia South will slot in.  Nice list. 

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 03:40:27 PM »
Ben,

Thanks for the list as I will reference it in future trips to Michigan. Is the point system based on the Doak scale?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 09:25:18 AM »
That’s excellent work Ben, thanks - an engaging and informative read. Having various folks write the profiles is particularly good.
I note that there is much more separation between the #1 and #2 spots than between any other spots in the list. I suppose that’s indicative of how truly great courses stand out so clearly; but it does make me think that we really are comparing apples to oranges, ie the apples being the small handful of exceptional courses, the oranges ALL the rest, The latter courses have to be ranked in such a list, but it seems like it doesn’t really matter if they’re in 10th or 33rd place; they are all still just very good oranges,

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 11:37:53 AM »
Ben and all who participated:


I think it will be interesting, as with the magazines "mature" lists, to see how courses settle in the list over time.  Meadowbrook is so new and so different than any other course in Michigan that it needs some time to get known.  I think it has staying power because of the land and Andy's bold vision backed by the club's leadership.  Similar on a less grand scale is Hepner's redo of DGC South.  I would like to hear from someone who knows the changes to the North course better than I as to whether we should be taking another look at that end of the property as well. 


What was fun in playing the South this spring is that it was one week after it opened for play and you could easily se the changes in the ground.  There was no regressing of entire fairways, etc. just redone areas where the work took place.  Meadowbrook of course changed everything.


Thanks again Ben. 
Anthony

Matt Glore

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 12:21:26 PM »
I don't approve of the formula, "all courses need to be played 5 times to be counted"
There are so many courses, I haven't played any good ones 5 times, because I'm ready to try the next one.  That would lend itself to people voting more for their private club than the better public courses.


No Dunes Club is an oversight! 

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 12:55:53 PM »
I don't approve of the formula, "all courses need to be played 5 times to be counted"
There are so many courses, I haven't played any good ones 5 times, because I'm ready to try the next one.  That would lend itself to people voting more for their private club than the better public courses.


No Dunes Club is an oversight!


I’m sure he means 5 different players need to have played a course for it to be counted

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 01:02:32 AM »
Having played all of the top of the list courses except Greywalls, I would order it quite differently.  Though my family's best friends, the Wards, founded Orchard Lake, it is the weakest Allison among many that I have played. Bloomfield Hills has more quality architecture to be found.  Barton Hills is elite among Ross greens complexes with exceptional used of the land. The Loop is a masterpiece that should contend for best course of 2017.  Black Forest may not be in great shape, but the architecture is exceptional.  I think Kingsley is great, but it is not better than the above mentioned, plus U of M and Indianwood

Tom_Doak

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 07:45:58 AM »
It's an interesting list, though my tastes are not quite the same as some of the others on the panel.  A few of the modern courses clearly benefit from the "early adopter" phenomenon, i.e., the first people to go see Greywalls or Meadowbrook or The Loop are the ones most predisposed to like it, and future voters are likely to be somewhat less enthusiastic.  That's why all but a very few new courses enter the rankings at the highest point they'll ever reach, and slowly fall back into the pack over time.

Jud_T

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 08:31:31 AM »
Blue Horseshoe says that while The Loop may not be Doak's best course, it may be his best design.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews New
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 08:54:51 AM »

Having played all of the top of the list courses except Greywalls, I would order it quite differently.  Though my family's best friends, the Wards, founded Orchard Lake, it is the weakest Allison among many that I have played. Bloomfield Hills has more quality architecture to be found.  Barton Hills is elite among Ross greens complexes with exceptional used of the land. The Loop is a masterpiece that should contend for best course of 2017.  Black Forest may not be in great shape, but the architecture is exceptional.  I think Kingsley is great, but it is not better than the above mentioned, plus U of M and Indianwood


Speaking of Orchard Lake, I played it yesterday for the 6th time.  Have you played it since the Foster Resto/Reno or during the Hilled days?  Orchard is the best Alison I have played and I think its safely ahead of Kirtland IMO.  Please explain in detail Orchard's deficiencies?   A Chicago bud of mine prefers Orchard to Milwaukee, which is high praise.  It has some deficiencies (9th hole and the greens).  Bloomfield is good and has potential to be the best Colt in the US IMO and a few others agree.  Unfortunately Foster wasn't able to complete the resto, but the club has hired Pont/DeVries.  The course isn't there yet.   Barton Hills is Prichard worst work I've seen.  The greens are so good that they got rid of the top hat on 9.  The 3rd and 12th green are worse after Prichard's work.  With the puddle on 6 fairway and the pond to the left on 10 that ruins a solid hole there are many deficiencies at Barton, It's a 6.0 Imo.  I can name 10 Ross courses that are superior to it and I haven't played any of the Ross gems and thoroughbreds in the NE.  Franklin Hills destroys Barton.  Haven't played a Doak course, I abstain from them.  Kingsley is better then both you mention and UofM is my home course.  If UofM can find a donor to restore the course instead of wasting $15 million on clubhouse it would be a different story.  Indianwood has 3 par 3's that are the same shot and greens that have shrunk 25-30%.  The routing and land are great.  Just furniture out of place  ;)


Tom,


    I disagree with you.  Many people either hate or love the new Meadowbrook, its polarizing, it didn't have enough votes.  I don't think It's newness love, you have the butt boys that will like anything you do.  Greywalls it's the fact more people are blown away by the land and don't take in account the routing IMO.  Many Detroiters voted on the list and over rank Oakland South, which I am proud to have given it the lowest score and have mine thrown out ;) .  I'm glad you aren't burning bridges anymore  ;)   you need to flip Battle 7, Barton 6  ;) :D   


Tony,


    You are retired, you need to play many courses in SW and the northern land (Diamond Springs, Battle Creek), Kinglsey and Greywalls.  Too much obsession with the dead guys.


Ryan,


  Yes, 100 point Doak Scale. 


Here is my 2 cents


Orchard Lake  8.5
Franklin Hills  8.1
Meadowbrook  7.9 (2 plays)
Kingsley           7.4
Greywalls         7.3
Battle Creek      7.2
UofM                6.9
Indianwood       6.8
Oakland South  6.7
Belvedere          6.6
Bloomfield       6.6
CCD                 6.4
Diamond Sp     6.3
Barton hills       6
Birmingham     6
Muskegon        5.9
Grosse ile         5.7
Radrick             5.6
Plum hollow     5.5
Flint                  5.5
Forest Dunes    5.4
Oakland north  5.3
Champion hill  5.1
Pilgrims run      5
Western            4.8
 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 10:01:59 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Brian Finn

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Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 09:01:15 AM »
Haven't played a Doak course, I abstain from them.
Could you explain this further?  I would think any serious student of gca would want/need to see some examples of his work.  Thanks.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 09:54:32 AM »

Brian,


   On my way up to Summerball I stopped to play the Loop, God intervened and we were rained out.  He wanted me to remain Doakless.   I am afraid if I play a Doak course I might like it and become a butt boy.  We already have too many of those on here.  I enjoy Tom's writing (Books and Posts).  I look forward to Stoatin Brae next year and I am disappointed I wasn't able to play it this year.  Stoatin and Loop Red were 1 vote away from getting in Top 25. 

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2017, 10:00:06 AM »

That’s excellent work Ben, thanks - an engaging and informative read. Having various folks write the profiles is particularly good.
I note that there is much more separation between the #1 and #2 spots than between any other spots in the list. I suppose that’s indicative of how truly great courses stand out so clearly; but it does make me think that we really are comparing apples to oranges, ie the apples being the small handful of exceptional courses, the oranges ALL the rest, The latter courses have to be ranked in such a list, but it seems like it doesn’t really matter if they’re in 10th or 33rd place; they are all still just very good oranges,


Peter,


   Thanks for the kind words.  I think 2-7 are very close.  When setting out to do these lists I find more value in seeing gems get in a top 25 or 40, courses in small towns that get overlooked by the rags and get to have their day in the Sun.  There are Doak 5's and 6's that have a much better genius loci and culture imo, that I would rather play over some 7's and 8's. 


   When looking at the list, it's refreshing that courses like Greywalls, Kingsley, and the Loop can get ranked higher while spending less on building the course then one course on here spent renovating their bowling alley/fitness center in it's clubhouse.  Some food for thought. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:58:51 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2017, 10:23:48 AM »
No way Orchard Lake is even close to Kirland. In addition, it does not equal Century, Fresh Meadow, Canoe Brook, and I can go on. And yes, I played there this past summer.  My granfather was a member there as well as Bloomfield, Pine Lake, and Oakland in the 30's.  Not sure what you fail to see at Barton Hills, but you are in an extreme minority among many of my well travelled friends who rank it in the spectacular range. And Franklin is spectacular as well, so no argument there. 

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews New
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 10:35:37 AM »

Robert,


Kirtland par 3s on the front are weak and I also feel 10 and 18 are too.  Kirtland also is over treed.  I can't speak for the others mentioned, but it would help your case if you explained why Orchard isn't good instead of listing your lineage.  Barton Hills has been played by many well travelled folks from our list that voted and some like it some don't.  You are insinuating that our group doesn't get out of the state.  Please tell us in more detail why Barton is so good?   I said that it has potential and stated its deficiencies, 6 is a fine score.  The top hat was so great they removed it this fall when they re sodded the greens.  Ravisloe, Inverness, Holston Hills, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Timuquana, #2, Scioto, Oakland Hills S, and Franklin Hills all are superior to Barton in its current state imo.  A blind puddle in the middle of the fairway on 6.  The pond to the left of 10 green they added in the 50s and 60's is hack work in attempting to create strategy and ruining a solid hole.  The 3rd and 12th green are awful.  The 11th green I'm indifferent. 17 don't care much for, but indifferent on that hole too. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 10:17:33 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Matt Glore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 03:25:15 PM »
Back to my question.  Where is Dunes Club?  The greens after the renovation are perfectly fitting for the course.  The tree removal made many holes much more playable. 

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews New
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 03:34:36 PM »

This gets brought up every year, the 2016 list will explain it.  It's not fair to compare 18 holes to 9 holes.  9 holers get the advantage of using the best land.  They are to be enjoyed. 


www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63835.0.html
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 10:19:38 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 05:43:07 PM »
This gets brought up every year, the 2016 list will explain it.  It's not fair to compare 18 holes to 9 holes.  9 holers get the advantage of using the best land.  They are to be enjoyed.

Cop out.  The most important aspect of evaluating courses to judge what is there...rather than what isn't there.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:55:51 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews New
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 06:11:32 PM »

This gets brought up every year, the 2016 list will explain it.  It's not fair to compare 18 holes to 9 holes.  9 holers get the advantage of using the best land.  They are to be enjoyed.

Cop out.  The most important aspect of evaluating courses to judge what is there...rather than what isn't there.

Ciao

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63835.0.html


2 years in a row you have brought this up.  It's rather rude to question people's hard work.  You can't evaluate the other 9 holes because they don't exist.  18 holes can't be compared to 9 holes.  This is very stupid simple
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 10:23:32 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 08:12:06 PM »
This gets brought up every year, the 2016 list will explain it.  It's not fair to compare 18 holes to 9 holes.  9 holers get the advantage of using the best land.  They are to be enjoyed.

Cop out.  The most important aspect of evaluating courses to judge what is there...rather than what isn't there.

Ciao


A guy posting under a fake name doesn't like it, too bad.  We are comparing apples to apples here, sorry u don't like it.  Chapper why don't u focus on ur UK tours.  Some of us put a lot of effort into this list and it's not urs u jumped ship to play with the red coats.  Guys now do more bitching then women.


Well, no one can accuse you of being a class act  ::)


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Michigan Top 40 Rankings (2017) List with Reviews
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2017, 08:23:28 PM »

This gets brought up every year, the 2016 list will explain it.  It's not fair to compare 18 holes to 9 holes.  9 holers get the advantage of using the best land.  They are to be enjoyed.

Cop out.  The most important aspect of evaluating courses to judge what is there...rather than what isn't there.

Ciao


A guy posting under a fake name doesn't like it, too bad.  We are comparing apples to apples here, sorry u don't like it.  Chapper why don't u focus on ur UK tours.  Some of us put a lot of effort into this list and it's not urs u jumped ship to play with the red coats.  Guys now do more bitching then women.


Well, no one can accuse you of being a class act  ::)


Ciao


The pot calling the kettle black.  You troll the list 2 years in a row and then accuse folks of not responding classy, lol.  You can't make this stuff up.