[Niall C]

I've played 18 holes in 1 1/2 hours and appreciated the course just fine.

Sounds like a lot of fun.  Hope you got home in time to stuff that is apparently even more fun.  Mow the grass, take out the trash, pay some bills, deal with door-to-door solicitations, and so on.

Cutting grass or paying bills versus going through an painfully slow pre-shot routine every time you hit a ball. Now that's a tough call.


Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Assuming a single golfer (with no players in front of him/her) most golf courses require 4-5 miles walking which at a moderate pace takes up 80-100 minutes (1:30) of the golfing experience.  90 shots (close to the average golfer) should take no more than 20 seconds each, adding 30 minutes.  BINGO! 2 hours for one average golfer playing alone.  I've done this several times at Dornoch (most recently at age 60), and the numbers match the model.


The gold standard for fast golf was 35-40 years go, when Steve Scott (world class middle distance runner) played a round under 30 minutes, carrying two clubs and holing out, shooting 95.


Fast backwards.  In the summers of 1981-1990 I played Dornoch regularly in a July fortnight with a moveable feast of fellow golfers, with handicaps from 5-20, age 40-60.  We booked 3-4 tee times every day, first 4-balls, arriving on the 1st tee at 9:40 disheveled but eager, threw balls up on the air to select partners, and then teed off and played.  The length of the average round was under 3 hours.  If we were out of the hole we picked up.  If one hit a ball into the grunge he looked for a minute and then walked forward.  We talked, but as we walked, not standing on the tee.  As we walked towards our ball, we focused on the lie and angle of the shot, and chose our club, hit it and then walked on.  10 years of this schooling taught me more about GCA than any pontifications, such as this.


Therefore, what?  Well the first time you play a course, just enjoy and save architectural thoughts for the 19th hole.  If you are not in a "one and done"  mode, play or walk the course again--that evening or the next day.  Spend some free time thinking about why you liked or did not the course or some of its holes, and most importantly, why. Keep a notebook.  Enjoy!


Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

We talked, but as we walked, not standing on the tee.  As we walked towards our ball, we focused on the lie and angle of the shot, and chose our club, hit it and then walked on.  10 years of this schooling taught me more about GCA than any pontifications, such as this.


Therefore, what?  Well the first time you play a course, just enjoy and save architectural thoughts for the 19th hole.  If you are not in a "one and done"  mode, play or walk the course again--that evening or the next day.  Spend some free time thinking about why you liked or did not the course or some of its holes, and most importantly, why. Keep a notebook.  Enjoy!


Rich

These things exactly

[John Kavanaugh]

Was sent put solo walking/carrying at vintage 6800 yard fairly rolling course yesterday morning and played the back nine in an hour.


Played through one 3some I'd followed since 1 by the 4th hole on the front nine before running into a twosome behind a foursome on the 7th tee.


The first 6 holes had taken an hour...so did the last 3 holes.


All of the other groups were in carts.

On a related note we could have played faster as a twosome in Kansas City. I approached the single in front of us and asked if we could join him...He was playing hickories. And then later in the round asked a lady who was waiting on us if she would like to join our group. Sure we could have played faster as two but I enjoyed the time spent with strangers who were stranger than you, to me anyway.


If you don't want to join the group in front of you I like this motto....Don't be a hound, go around.

[MCirba]

Rich,

I think what you wrote there are words to live by.   But I think it's a cultural difference as I'll explain below.

John,

There could be almost nothing stranger than the two of us playing golf together and it was a great day.     I don't recall specifics but still think we got around in something like 3 or 3.5 hours.

I almost always will join up with others/strangers but sometimes when you don't know each other and one group is in carts and someone else is walking it can be a bit of an imbalance.   If I'm walking solo I'll almost always try to give anyone in front of me some space but depending on who is coming behind sometimes that gets difficult.   Oddly, in the case of this past weekend the foursome ahead of the twosome in front of me were actually playing faster than the twosome.

Back to culture...

Two Octobers ago I went to England/Scotland for a whirlwind few days, playing/walking respectively 18 at Alwoodley, 36 at Muirfield (in 40-50 mph winds), 45 with 18 at Renaissance, 9 at Old Musselburgh links, and then 18 at Gullane #1, followed by 36 at Royal Lytham and Fairhaven.

All were two-balls except the 36 at Muirfield where we played as a 3-ball with another GCA-er, and another 3-ball with another GCA-er at Gullane.

The longest round was the morning round at Muirfield that took 3 hours due to both the wind and the backup on the 7th tee (our 16th hole) which was almost impossible into the teeth of the wind and the fact that a local rule requires waiting until players tee off on 8 before driving on 7.   

Every other round was roughly 2.5 hours, and all were architecturally enjoyable and memorable.   I sometimes wonder what we spend time doing here in the States because we seem to take a sense of entitlement on the course with us.

[Peter Pallotta]

If someone can tell me how long the typical 2-ball at Woking takes, I will henceforth use that as my guide.
Peter

[A.G._Crockett]

I've played 18 holes in 1 1/2 hours and appreciated the course just fine.

Sounds like a lot of fun.  Hope you got home in time to stuff that is apparently even more fun.  Mow the grass, take out the trash, pay some bills, deal with door-to-door solicitations, and so on.

Cutting grass or paying bills versus going through an painfully slow pre-shot routine every time you hit a ball. Now that's a tough call.


Niall

Niall,
Let's agree that there is a fair amount of distance in between "I've played 18 holes in 1 1/2 hours"  and a "painfully slow pre-shot routine every time you hit the ball." 

Perhaps my attitude is colored by the fact that I'm retired, but I don't go to the golf course to see how quickly I can finish and get home.  That does NOT mean slow play, it does NOT mean painful pre-shot routines, and it does NOT mean five hour rounds.  A four ball played in 3:30 to 4:00 is quite a nice pace; I get to enjoy time with my friends, time in nature, and time with a golf club in my hand. 

For the record, I don't try see how fast I can drink a beer after the round, either.  I want to appreciate a good beer in much the same way that I appreciate a good golf hole on a good golf course. Though I do like to finish it before it gets warm...

[John Kavanaugh]

My wife just let me know that it drives her crazy how slow I am when we go out for lunch. She doesn't have a paying occupation. She went on to say that she now understands why it takes me 12 hours to play nine holes. When I explained that I play 18 holes she threw her hands in the air while marching into the house saying..."No F-ing way...no way you could ever play 18 holes in one day...". Damn...if I only knew, I'd say I am going for 18 and Make it an overnighter.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf clubs and church have in inverse relationship in my life. One I'm first in, last out...the other...last in, first out.  I'm going to try not wearing a watch in church. You guys should try the same when golfing.

[George Pazin]

Walking 18 in 3 hours seems about right to me, based on prior experiences. I've played faster, can't say it was more enjoyable, and I've certainly played slower, when pace was dictated by those in front of me. Mostly I just love playing, and only complain if the pace means I'm watching someone plumb bob repeatedly when 45 feet from the hole.


Is it possible to play too fast? I suppose. Sure would like to experience that someday, just once even.


Calling Steve Scott a world class runner is like calling Spieth a tour pro, btw. Accurate, but a little misleading...

[Rich Goodale]

George


Scott was in the world top ten for middle distance runners 11 times.  When Spieth reaches the same achievement as a golf pro i'll promote him to world-class.


Rich

[John Foley]

Calling Steve Scott a world class runner is like calling Spieth a tour pro, btw. Accurate, but a little misleading...

Steve pretty sure it was this guy who shot the 95 in under 30 min


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Scott_(athlete)


Not this guy


http://www.pga.com/news/pga/twenty-years-later-steve-scott-reflects-epic-battle-tiger-woods

[Brandon Urban]

I recently had the amazing opportunity to play NGLA, which was number one on my bucket list of places I wanted to visit. Standing on the first tee, I kept having the conversation with myself to slow down and try to take everything in... then I blinked and we were putting out on the 18th green.
We played at a leisurely pace and finished in just under four hours, but it felt like minutes.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it kind of all depends on the golf course and your expectations going in to the day. I've played rounds in under two hours where I felt like I saw everything that needed to be seen and I've played rounds closer to four hours, like the one at National, where I feel like I didn't even begin to understand what was going on.

[Kalen Braley]

Still trying to figure out why golfing architecture purists are in such a gawd damn hurry to get the round over.  I get not wanting to do 5+ hours, but less than 3 is just a big rush.....(the one exception if its wide open and no one in front of you)


You love golf
You love golf architecture
You love trying to figure out all the subtleties....


....but then rush to get it all over and done with!   

[A.G._Crockett]

Still trying to figure out why golfing architecture purists are in such a gawd damn hurry to get the round over.  I get not wanting to do 5+ hours, but less than 3 is just a big rush.....(the one exception if its wide open and no one in front of you)


You love golf
You love golf architecture
You love trying to figure out all the subtleties....


....but then rush to get it all over and done with!   

Amen!

It is one of, if not THE, weirdest things about this site.  I get hating slow play; I do, too.  I get that 5 hour rounds are bad for the game and it's future; I agree wholeheartedly.  I support pace of play standards, and wish that my own course was a bit more militant about enforcement.

But the idea that I love golf courses so much that I should try to be finished and gone as quickly as possible?  Now THAT one escapes me!  Sort of a Bizarro World from Superman comics approach to golf.

[Pat Alpaugh]

You summed it up perfectly, Brandon.  I had the good fortune of playing Riviera a while ago and the entire time I kept thinking that it was going by way too fast.  If you're intent on playing in under two and half hours you're either playing the wrong courses or with the wrong people.   

I recently had the amazing opportunity to play NGLA, which was number one on my bucket list of places I wanted to visit. Standing on the first tee, I kept having the conversation with myself to slow down and try to take everything in... then I blinked and we were putting out on the 18th green.
We played at a leisurely pace and finished in just under four hours, but it felt like minutes.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it kind of all depends on the golf course and your expectations going in to the day. I've played rounds in under two hours where I felt like I saw everything that needed to be seen and I've played rounds closer to four hours, like the one at National, where I feel like I didn't even begin to understand what was going on.

[Kalen Braley]

And an amen right back at ya!

One of the best examples that comes to mind.  Another GCA'er and myself played Ballyneal a number of years back.  We get to the E green, #7 and I was like this is pretty damn unique.  No one else in sight, it was a pretty slow day, we had talked with Rupert before the round and he was like the course is mostly empty take your time and enjoy it.  We spent a good 20 minutes just hanging out and trying different putts from all sorts of angles...


That was fun and I was amazed at how interesting you could make a green with seemingly impossible straight putts to the hole, but then figure out the contours to get it close.  Great stuff.

[Ira Fishman]

The example that bothered me: we played Pine Needles for first time post the most recent renovation. Probably my 8th or so play so not a “one and done”. No one in front of us, and no one in back either. We played as two ball in a bit less than 3 hours. In retrospect, I wish I had spent more time checking out the green restorations/expansions. To do so would not have held anyone up and would have just pushed first and last drink back 15 minutes or so. But our imperative psychologically to play fast was just that—an imperative. Probably a misplaced one though.


Ira

[Steve Lang]

    Ira,


That might merit a Badge of Courage... is your middle name Henry?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Karen, Archie et al,


It's because when I play in half the time, I'll play twice as many rounds in the year.


Golf is about walking and hitting shots. I'm not advocating for any faster than that. When a winter round on a links feels like a good, bracing Christmas walk along the beach, then it's achieved it's high satisfaction factor.

[Ally Mcintosh]

That's not to say that it isn't pleasant on occasion to saunter rather than stride and to stop and admire a certain green on a first play.

[Mark Pearce]

It isn't a rush for a single to play in 150 minutes, or a two ball to lay in 3 hours.  Nor are you "taking it all in" when taking an age to choose a club.  And thinking ahead as you approach your ball is part of understanding the course, not an obstruction to doing so.


And let's not kid ourselves, as has been hinted at above some of the slowest golf I have ever played has been at GCA events.  And the suggestion that UK golfers are all quick is nonsense, the painful BUDA rounds at Perranporth and Strandhill, where on both occasions we were held up by locals, illustrate that perfectly.

[George Pazin]

George


Scott was in the world top ten for middle distance runners 11 times.  When Spieth reaches the same achievement as a golf pro i'll promote him to world-class.


Rich

You misunderstand me. Steve Scott, the one who plays speed golf, was an American record holder in the mile for a looooooooong time. That is one step beyond being a world class runner. Much like Spieth is not just a tour pro.


John Foley, I believe you make the same mis-read.


Or perhaps my analogy wasn't clear...


As for those who wish to stop and smell the roses...that's fine, just don't dawdle. Appreciating your round is one thing; plumb-bobbing your 60 footer, and then your 10 foot follow up, and then the tap in, is just annoying to everyone. It doesn't take a genius to understand the difference, merely a considerate person.

[Rich Goodale]

George


Your analogy is accepted, even though it is a weak one.


We are a kinder, gentler, and more vapid discussion group compared to the good old days.
 
One of these days, hopefully, we'll get back to interesting threads about golf course architecture..........


Rich

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