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MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 10:32:05 AM »
The staunch traditionalists on this website might not accept the fact that the "October Wedding Surprise" was part of the plan at Merion all along, but this fact was not realized until recent times.

Due to some of the remarkable revisionist historical research that has been accomplished on this website, we can now reveal what Merion has uncovered in their archives.   Most of this correspondence has been previously copied here, but recovery specialists have now been able to reveal portions of the letter that had been unreadable due to smudging they believe is attributed to cow manure, most likely utilized at the time as a result of the recommendations contained herein;

New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified as they make outstanding backdrops for wedding photography.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer and don't stand up well to the high heels favored by fashionable women of the genteel set..

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House where the finest of facilities for hosting weddings, bar mitzvahs, and other gloriously lucrative events can be constructed by your committee to help defray the otherwise prohibitive costs of the "white faces" your Mr. Wilson has proposed.  The opinion that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well and would hold up well to foot traffic as drunken revelers cavort across the property perhaps looking for the "hen house" proposed in my other correspondence.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.  From my understanding, that club also does a brisk wedding business, mostly catering to upscale NY clientele looking for a mountain backdrop for their photos.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for analysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.  My son-in-law Whigham told me he's considering getting divorced just so he can re-marry my dearest daughter at your facility, given the clear potential for an ideal event.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 07:20:51 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 10:53:51 AM »
If it's not too rude or direct a question, how does a club like Merion or PVGC go about financing work of that amount ? Is it through reserves, bank borrowing, or a direct levy on the members ?


Niall

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 03:23:22 PM »
If you have to ask you cannot afford it?

My bet is PV will just fund it like they were buying a new toaster, comes out of capital funds. I imagine they have a nice rainy day fund set aside.

Merion ? Maybe increased guest fees and add a few more members?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »
Niall -


Their projects are probably financed with a combination of all the things you mention.


Bob

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2017, 06:27:44 PM »
Probably weighted significantly toward the second option, given the low costs of capital today.  $15+ million is a staggering amount, though.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2017, 06:46:19 PM »
While Merion, PV & Aronimink are doing big time renovations for big bucks. we're contemplating a bunker redo for about 500K. My analysis: If you've got it, flaunt it.  ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2017, 06:54:16 PM »
501c-3's, including Merion, file form 990 and they are available to us as taxpayers. Enjoy:


http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2016/230/868/2016-230868348-0dd54992-9O.pdf (you may have to register)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

BCowan

Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2017, 06:55:49 PM »
A former Doak Associate did the bunkers at a course in SC MI for $150k.  The bunkers are outstanding, but they are on sandier soil.  I'm still gagging on my puke.   

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2017, 07:02:31 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2017, 07:21:05 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses.  I don't like to see NLE Golden Age courses. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2017, 07:50:48 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses.  I don't like to see NLE Golden Age courses.

So if my neighbour buys an Aston Martin I will catch his madness?  I would tend to think what my neighbour buys is none of my business.  Each club has a responsibility to its members to be fiscally sound....thats it.  Everything else about rich clubs presumably having some sort of obligation not to spend their money because it models poor behaviour to less fortunate clubs is nonsense.  Just be thankful that you can afford to play golf...isn't that enough?   

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 07:52:20 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2017, 08:14:02 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses.  I don't like to see NLE Golden Age courses.

So if my neighbour buys an Aston Martin I will catch his madness?  I would tend to think what my neighbour buys is none of my business.  Each club has a responsibility to its members to be fiscally sound....thats it.  Everything else about rich clubs presumably having some sort of obligation not to spend their money because it models poor behaviour to less fortunate clubs is nonsense.  Just be thankful that you can afford to play golf...isn't that enough?   

Ciao


Sean,


Ur neighbor buying AM is poor anaolgy. U might remember the housing bubble not that long ago and Detroit being bailed out.  A group of people make up a club and spending other people's money wrecklessly.  It is hilarious uve gone all capitalist on us, for u feel UM shouldn't break even w golf operations.  Now they are advertising weddings.


I'm still free to chastise stupidity when I see it. No obligation, so don't twist my words. 

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2017, 09:12:01 PM »

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses


While I understand the frustration you're trying to express ... that statement is not true.
For the mid-tier (because that's who I think you actually mean) post 2008 renovation always involves "living within their means."


The clubs this site concentrates on are the elite "of the elite" - they're far removed from the mid tier or lower tier clubs
The two in question likely have more than that in the bank ... it's a different world.



With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

BCowan

Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2017, 09:39:52 PM »

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses


While I understand the frustration you're trying to express ... that statement is not true.
For the mid-tier (because that's who I think you actually mean) post 2008 renovation always involves "living within their means."


The clubs this site concentrates on are the elite "of the elite" - they're far removed from the mid tier or lower tier clubs
The two in question likely have more than that in the bank ... it's a different world.

Ian,

   I've played many uber exclusive courses, I know the world they live in.  I don't agree with you, the club I grew up at emulated the well know top 100 club in our area at certain times, gassing their greens in the 90's as an example.  The silver lining was every club that rebuilt their clubhouse in NW Ohio and went under was purchased by an individual with some sense.  Another club in the area has recklessly spent money on items not needed (50 members loaning $50k to the club) and is influenced by the big club in the area.  I was a caddie in my youth and you hear a lot about keeping up with the jones's or the Merion like in one's area.  I totally understand that Merion and PV are  free to do what ever they want and they are insulated from reality.  Oakland Hills was going to spend a fortune on their greens when its not needed.  The mid to lower tier clubs can get a line of credit due to the value of their land, and some do. 

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2017, 05:25:06 AM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao


I have not played Merion for years but it will always be a BIG part of my golf consuousness as it was THE course that I grew up with in terms of "great courses". 


By total coincidence, I ran into an old old friend yesterday who is a Merion member and we talked briefly about the many changes and he is considering dropping the membership. He is in very comfortable position in life and he just had enough with the new-Merion.


I love golf, so of course I care about Merion. And yes, I understand that they don't care about my opinion, but that does not make it wrong :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2017, 05:35:34 AM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao


I have not played Merion for years but it will always be a BIG part of my golf consuousness as it was THE course that I grew up with in terms of "great courses". 


By total coincidence, I ran into an old old friend yesterday who is a Merion member and we talked briefly about the many changes and he is considering dropping the membership. He is in very comfortable position in life and he just had enough with the new-Merion.


I love golf, so of course I care about Merion. And yes, I understand that they don't care about my opinion, but that does not make it wrong :)


What is wrong, the money being spent of the proposed changes?  It is one thing to be skeptical about changes to a classic course, quite another to have issues with the cost.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 06:40:11 AM »

What is wrong, the money being spent of the proposed changes?  It is one thing to be skeptical about changes to a classic course, quite another to have issues with the cost.


Ciao


You and your new buddy Mr Moore can have your complicated conversations. Me, I am going back to basics :)


https://twitter.com/golf_com/status/922528684157874176
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 07:28:19 AM »
 :D


I will leave is to the accountants among us but don't non profits need to spend revenues taken in or risk losing their status.  Pine Valley has many visiting guests daily , much more than the norm . 


I believe they need to spend this money on the golf course / facility to maintain their tax status.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 08:19:44 AM »
Probably weighted significantly toward the second option, given the low costs of capital today.  $15+ million is a staggering amount, though.


I am always surprised by the size of the loans, interest rates and repayments terms that banks will offer to established golf clubs in their towns.


Bob

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 08:57:18 AM »

What is wrong, the money being spent of the proposed changes?  It is one thing to be skeptical about changes to a classic course, quite another to have issues with the cost.


Ciao


You and your new buddy Mr Moore can have your complicated conversations. Me, I am going back to basics :)


https://twitter.com/golf_com/status/922528684157874176


I am a twitter free guy  :-*


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2017, 09:19:25 AM »
:D


I will leave is to the accountants among us but don't non profits need to spend revenues taken in or risk losing their status.  Pine Valley has many visiting guests daily , much more than the norm . 


I believe they need to spend this money on the golf course / facility to maintain their tax status.




Yes this is true Archie. The biggest driver of revenue is membership dues. One can argue if you can't intelligently spend all the money you bring in you could lower your dues or stop increasing your dues annually.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2017, 10:23:02 AM »
    Who has the higher insurance premium - the doc who did Tiger's eyes or the archie who's tearing up Merion's greens?

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2017, 11:19:58 AM »
I see my attempt to interject humor by trying to implicate CBM as a consulting Wedding Planner at Merion sank like the Titanic.   :'(

What a dour group!   ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2017, 11:30:20 AM »
I see my attempt to interject humor by trying to implicate CBM as a consulting Wedding Planner at Merion sank like the Titanic.   :'(

What a dour group!   ;)


Much appreciated this side. I believe he was also trying to peddle slightly dodgy Tillinghast drawings around the same time...


 ;D
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2017, 02:38:48 PM »
While the rhetoric is fascinating.  Does the price tag seem comparable for installing the golf version of "18 hockey rinks" and rebuilding them back to what they were within a quarter inch?


You can debate all you like if they "should" do it, but if the price of actually doing it is in the ballpark for this type of procedure, then is it that bad?

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