Merion and Pine Valley refurbs

[Mark Chaplin]

Pine Valley are closing from the beginning of November for 5 months for further course improvements rumoured to involve the 12th hole and lower 9th green going. Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.


Merion East closes at the start of December for 18 months for a comprehensive refurbishment rumoured to cost in excess of $15m. Will be very interesting to see how this turns out.

[Mike Sweeney]

Pine Valley are closing from the beginning of November for 5 months for further course improvements rumoured to involve the 12th hole and lower 9th green going. Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.


Merion East closes at the start of December for 18 months for a comprehensive refurbishment rumoured to cost in excess of $15m. Will be very interesting to see how this turns out.

Apples vs Oranges


I am on protest and will only play Merion West moving forward!!


It is hard to imagine, but Pine Valley needs improvement


What a shocker, one club cares about the USGA, and the other club....


I am pretty sure my Birth Certificate from Jefferson Hospital in Philly will secretly disappear after this post, and that is okay!!


When is Ran starting his alt-USGA golf society, and Chaplin you need to step up too???

[Tim_Weiman]

Pine Valley are closing from the beginning of November for 5 months for further course improvements rumoured to involve the 12th hole and lower 9th green going. Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.


Merion East closes at the start of December for 18 months for a comprehensive refurbishment rumoured to cost in excess of $15m. Will be very interesting to see how this turns out.

$15 million. What happened to being frugal?

[Mike_Young]

" great is the enemy of good" certainly applies to so much when it comes to golf in this country....not saying these types of things will not be impressive but I don't know where it stops...

[Jim Nugent]

Merion East closes at the start of December for 18 months for a comprehensive refurbishment rumoured to cost in excess of $15m.

Any info or clues on what they will do? 

[PCCraig]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

[JESII]

Strip the property 6 inches deep from wall to wall and go from there...

[Mike Sweeney]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

My understanding is that are putting in the Augusta-like system of temperature control under all 18 greens (and i assume the practice green). That is similar to building 18 new hockey rinks on the border of the Mason-Dixon line, as you are talking about heat and cooling.


I learned this while attending a wedding at the Merion GOLF Club this summer. Just to be clear, yes I just wrote that I attended a wedding at Merion Golf Club in the wedding pavilion brought to you by the USGA that required the space for the US Open. So the by-product of hosting US Opens is you now can have some really nice weddings


The Buck Club is looking good!! Focus on the grasses and playing surface Zac!

[Mike Nuzzo]

 Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.

 

What aspect of changes to the 2nd hole, that included softening one of the greatest greens in the world, are fabulous?
blech...

[Ted Sirbaugh]

 Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.

 

What aspect of changes to the 2nd hole, that included softening one of the greatest greens in the world, are fabulous?
blech...

Can't speak to the softening of the green, but I found the new bunkering and tree removal to be very good changes to the 2nd

[PCCraig]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

My understanding is that are putting in the Augusta-like system of temperature control under all 18 greens (and i assume the practice green). That is similar to building 18 new hockey rinks on the border of the Mason-Dixon line, as you are talking about heat and cooling.

I suppose I should of figured it included Sub Air. I know of one case of a major-hosting club installing Sub Air close to the Mason Dixon line that practically killed their greens in a very humid summer. The humidity coupled with the cooling system created essentially a sub surface algae.

[Anthony_Nysse]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

My understanding is that are putting in the Augusta-like system of temperature control under all 18 greens (and i assume the practice green). That is similar to building 18 new hockey rinks on the border of the Mason-Dixon line, as you are talking about heat and cooling.



I learned this while attending a wedding at the Merion GOLF Club this summer. Just to be clear, yes I just wrote that I attended a wedding at Merion Golf Club in the wedding pavilion brought to you by the USGA that required the space for the US Open. So the by-product of hosting US Opens is you now can have some really nice weddings


The Buck Club is looking good!! Focus on the grasses and playing surface Zac!

This would be the same type of system that has been installed at LACC. Much different than Subair.

[BCowan]

I think I'm going to puke

[Ed Brzezowski]

Merion East closes at the start of December for 18 months for a comprehensive refurbishment rumoured to cost in excess of $15m.

Any info or clues on what they will do?

Everything, no blade of grass will go unmolested is what I hear. Bet it breaks 15 mil too.

[MCirba]

I've been around GolfClubAtlas long enough to know that when a thread has either 'Merion" and/or "Pine Valley" in the title to stay far, far away.

With both in the same title, I'd simply state, "Danger Will Robinson".    

[Bill Crane]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

My understanding is that are putting in the Augusta-like system of temperature control under all 18 greens (and i assume the practice green). That is similar to building 18 new hockey rinks on the border of the Mason-Dixon line, as you are talking about heat and cooling.


I learned this while attending a wedding at the Merion GOLF Club this summer. Just to be clear, yes I just wrote that I attended a wedding at Merion Golf Club in the wedding pavilion brought to you by the USGA that required the space for the US Open. So the by-product of hosting US Opens is you now can have some really nice weddings


The Buck Club is looking good!! Focus on the grasses and playing surface Zac!

Mike:


You must have attended an event at the "Hugh Wilson Pavilion" . 


Yes, named in honor of the same Hugh Wilson who played his college golf at Springdale Golf Club's (Princeton, NJ) original nine hole course, and joined our Greens Committee in 1900 in preparation of moving the course to a new location.


Of course, he went on to Chair an historic committee at Merion.


Our connection to Wilson helped us find W Flynn in 1926 to do a re-design of our course.

[SPDB]

rumoured to involve the 12th hole and lower 9th green going.

Mark,
What do you mean by the "lower 9th green going?

[Ed Brzezowski]

How is it even possible to spend $15mln on a "refurb" of a classic existing golf course?

My understanding is that are putting in the Augusta-like system of temperature control under all 18 greens (and i assume the practice green). That is similar to building 18 new hockey rinks on the border of the Mason-Dixon line, as you are talking about heat and cooling.


I learned this while attending a wedding at the Merion GOLF Club this summer. Just to be clear, yes I just wrote that I attended a wedding at Merion Golf Club in the wedding pavilion brought to you by the USGA that required the space for the US Open. So the by-product of hosting US Opens is you now can have some really nice weddings


The Buck Club is looking good!! Focus on the grasses and playing surface Zac!

Mike:


You must have attended an event at the "Hugh Wilson Pavilion" . 


Yes, named in honor of the same Hugh Wilson who played his college golf at Springdale Golf Club's (Princeton, NJ) original nine hole course, and joined our Greens Committee in 1900 in preparation of moving the course to a new location.


Of course, he went on to Chair an historic committee at Merion.


Our connection to Wilson helped us find W Flynn in 1926 to do a re-design of our course.


I thought it went in after the Open?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike:


You must have attended an event at the "Hugh Wilson Pavilion" . 


Yes, named in honor of the same Hugh Wilson who played his college golf at Springdale Golf Club's (Princeton, NJ) original nine hole course, and joined our Greens Committee in 1900 in preparation of moving the course to a new location.


Of course, he went on to Chair an historic committee at Merion.


Our connection to Wilson helped us find W Flynn in 1926 to do a re-design of our course.

Bill,


I have been a frequent guest in the past at Merion, and that may end with this series of post. 


Respectfully, 1900 and 1926 was the Merion Cricket Club era. There have been many discussions in the past here on GCA that led me to believe:

• Gulph Mills was started in 1916 in part because many Merion Cricket Club members wanted a "golf only" club;
• Merion GC was formed in 1941 so that it could be just that, a golf club. MCC and MGC split into two entities with many members between the two clubs.

Winged Foot had a similar side by side relationship with the New York Athletic Club, but Winged Foot was/is/always has been a separate golf club.


Now in chasing the US Open, I feel that Merion Golf Club is losing its way. The event this summer was not a golf event, it was a wedding. Neither the bride nor groom had a direct connection to Merion GC, in fact the parents are members of nearby country clubs. But Merion is the hot spot for a wedding on the Main Line, and it was in fact a very nice event.


Call me "old school", call me not "realizing the modernization of the game", but I honestly feel that Merion Golf Club should be for golf (similar to Winged Foot) and Merion Cricket Club, Philly CC, nearby restaurants, and other venues can host family events and parties.


Just the opinion of an outsider, but clearly many insiders aren't super happy about losing their golf course again.


Fairways and greens.

[jeffwarne]

Mike:


You must have attended an event at the "Hugh Wilson Pavilion" . 


Yes, named in honor of the same Hugh Wilson who played his college golf at Springdale Golf Club's (Princeton, NJ) original nine hole course, and joined our Greens Committee in 1900 in preparation of moving the course to a new location.


Of course, he went on to Chair an historic committee at Merion.


Our connection to Wilson helped us find W Flynn in 1926 to do a re-design of our course.

Bill,


I have been a frequent guest in the past at Merion, and that may end with this series of post. 


Respectfully, 1900 and 1926 was the Merion Cricket Club era. There have been many discussions in the past here on GCA that led me to believe:

• Gulph Mills was started in 1916 in part because many Merion Cricket Club members wanted a "golf only" club;
• Merion GC was formed in 1941 so that it could be just that, a golf club. MCC and MGC split into two entities with many members between the two clubs.

Winged Foot had a similar side by side relationship with the New York Athletic Club, but Winged Foot was/is/always has been a separate golf club.


Now in chasing the US Open, I feel that Merion Golf Club is losing its way. The event this summer was not a golf event, it was a wedding. Neither the bride nor groom had a direct connection to Merion GC, in fact the parents are members of nearby country clubs. But Merion is the hot spot for a wedding on the Main Line, and it was in fact a very nice event.


Call me "old school", call me not "realizing the modernization of the game", but I honestly feel that Merion Golf Club should be for golf (similar to Winged Foot) and Merion Cricket Club, Philly CC, nearby restaurants, and other venues can host family events and parties.


Just the opinion of an outsider, but clearly many insiders aren't super happy about losing their golf course again.


Fairways and greens.

The perfect storm.
Spend 15 million to do something to the course. (I mean we all know Merion sucked before)
Hold weddings to finance it....


curmudgeon alert

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike Cirba,


Just to start another conflab, who gets design credit for the latest redo?


Sometimes we work with business consultants and with courses wanting to increase their wedding venues.  I hardly ever recommend it, mostly because I figure every penny spent there is a penny not spent on the golf course (when it needs it)

Having seen the stats on the wedding biz, first, it's declining.  Average wedding size down from 175 to 136 in the last several years.  I googled "Do wedding venues make money?" and one response was "almost certainly not." 


The average number of weddings is down.  Marrying older, past the age where bride's Dad thinks he should give his "little girl" a big wedding.  The great recession hurt.  And, there is a substantial trend to "event weddings" in Key West and similar places (slight downturn in those in the near future due to Irma, etc.) There is a small blip of growth due to gay weddings (which not all venues, esp. here in the south, welcome).


Second, club GM's tell me the most profitable food based events are 1) Golf Outings, they already want to play there for the golf, so they can't quibble too much on the price, 2) corporate events, because they can afford it, 3) Weddings, and family events because Dear Old Dad has the least amount of cash and bargains the hardest.


Lastly, while there is still the cache of getting married at a place like Merion, there is always the design problem of keeping brides and guests away from overly drunk and boisterous golfers.  It doesn't take but one buffoon to ruin the big day.


There are far more clubs that regret those huge clubhouses than convert them to slam dunk revenue enhancers.  Events are a completely new line of biz.  At one recent meeting (a public course) where such a facility was discussed one board members mentioned that a private club just miles away spent $15M in clubhouse and golf renovations, and promptly went broke.  And, that 2/3 or all restaurants go through three owners before being successful, if at all.


I suspect Merion will do best in about that order, at least to the degree they host those Monday golf outings. 


But, free advice from the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it......I am certainly no expert, nor do I play one on TV.

[Tim Martin]

Mike Cirba,


Just to start another conflab, who gets design credit for the latest redo?


Sometimes we work with business consultants and with courses wanting to increase their wedding venues.  I hardly ever recommend it, mostly because I figure every penny spent there is a penny not spent on the golf course (when it needs it)

Having seen the stats on the wedding biz, first, it's declining.  Average wedding size down from 175 to 136 in the last several years.  I googled "Do wedding venues make money?" and one response was "almost certainly not." 


The average number of weddings is down.  Marrying older, past the age where bride's Dad thinks he should give his "little girl" a big wedding.  The great recession hurt.  And, there is a substantial trend to "event weddings" in Key West and similar places (slight downturn in those in the near future due to Irma, etc.) There is a small blip of growth due to gay weddings (which not all venues, esp. here in the south, welcome).


Second, club GM's tell me the most profitable food based events are 1) Golf Outings, they already want to play there for the golf, so they can't quibble too much on the price, 2) corporate events, because they can afford it, 3) Weddings, and family events because Dear Old Dad has the least amount of cash and bargains the hardest.


Lastly, while there is still the cache of getting married at a place like Merion, there is always the design problem of keeping brides and guests away from overly drunk and boisterous golfers.  It doesn't take but one buffoon to ruin the big day.


There are far more clubs that regret those huge clubhouses than convert them to slam dunk revenue enhancers.  Events are a completely new line of biz.  At one recent meeting (a public course) where such a facility was discussed one board members mentioned that a private club just miles away spent $15M in clubhouse and golf renovations, and promptly went broke.  And, that 2/3 or all restaurants go through three owners before being successful, if at all.


I suspect Merion will do best in about that order, at least to the degree they host those Monday golf outings. 


But, free advice from the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it......I am certainly no expert, nor do I play one on TV.

Jeff-The cache that comes from having your event at Merion isn't going to fade any time soon and as Mike points out even though the parent's of the bride and groom were members at other clubs they chose Merion. Further I would bet that they have to turn down substantially more wedding business than they can accommodate. I can't imagine what the downside is to the club and its members especially when the East course is closed. Thanks.

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike:


You must have attended an event at the "Hugh Wilson Pavilion" . 



Bill,


I have been a frequent guest in the past at Merion, and that may end with this series of post. 


Respectfully, 1900 and 1926 was the Merion Cricket Club era. There have been many discussions in the past here on GCA that led me to believe

• Gulph Mills was started in 1916 in part because many Merion Cricket Club members wanted a "golf only" club

This is not true, Gulph Mills was founded entirely by members of St Davids.  SDGC had an option for the ground and passed.  Now many of these same people were members at Merion but it was an offshoot of SDGC and members concerned about being members of a club on leased property.   Also early in GMGC’s history many of these members were simultaneously board members for both clubs, SDGC that is not Merion Cricket.

[Mike Sweeney]

Respectfully, 1900 and 1926 was the Merion Cricket Club era. There have been many discussions in the past here on GCA that led me to believe:

• Gulph Mills was started in 1916 in part because many Merion Cricket Club members wanted a "golf only" club

This is not true, Gulph Mills was founded entirely by members of St Davids.  SDGC had an option for the ground and passed.  Now many of these same people were members at Merion but it was an offshoot of SDGC and members concerned about being members of a club on leased property.   Also early in GMGC’s history many of these members were simultaneously board members for both clubs, SDGC that is not Merion Cricket.

______________________________________________________________

Mike,


I know you are much deeper than me in the research. That said, here is Tom Paul's interview quote:


http://golfclubatlas.com/tom-paul-april-2012-page-2/


"Gulph Mills GC was founded in 1916 by A.J. Drexel Paul, my grandfather, and ten of his friends from Merion GC and St. Davids GC. Apparently the original St David’s course wasn’t much and they had become fed up with the crowded conditions with golf at Merion. Consequently, the original theme of GMGC was ease of play. Today, and throughout the club’s ninety five year history that theme has been preserved (the club never does more than about 12,000 rounds per year). The whole idea with the golf at GMGC is easy access to the course and the idea of starting times is still very much anathema to the club."

and also on GapGolf:

http://www.gapgolf.org/clubs.asp?cid=43


At times Merion was the victim of its own success. Despite the club’s two eighteens, some of its members still found conditions crowded. On June 19, 1916, a meeting was held to organize the Gulph Mills Golf Club. The founding group—Alba B. Johnson (who would be named president), Isaac H. Clothier, Jr., and A.J. Drexel Paul (vice presidents), Weston J. Hibbs (secretary-treasurer), C. Willing Hare, Thomas McKean, J. Kearsley Mitchell, J.H. Barnes, R.K. Cassatt, G.Q. Horwitz, C. Munn, and F.K. Wainwright—consisted in the main of men from Merion Cricket Club who envisioned a golf club limited to 100 or, at the most, 150 members.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thank goodness they are dealing with the horrendous conditions these two clubs have expected their members and visitors to put up with. This very modest amount being spent to solve the massive conditioning and architectural deficits these two potentially world class courses is a small price to pay. Especially PV which has seen its ranking plummet to the very top needs this to be addressed


Disclaimer: this post is meant in an entirely ironic/sarcastic manner.