[Wayne_Kozun]

TOC is being destroyed today as there were 59 watches for both Victor Dubuisson and Ross Fisher.  Dubuisson bogeyed 16 and ended up one behind his course record of 63.  Fisher ends up with a new course record of 61 after missing a short putt for a 60.


That rumbling sound that you hear is Old Tom rolling around in his grave.

[Clyde Johnson]

There was NO wind!!!


Plus the leader started well ahead, so not much for those guys to lose by playing aggressive.

[Marty Bonnar]

I’ll use this opportunity to say it again.


The Old Course, UNLESS THE WIND BLOWS AN ABSOLUTE HOOLIE, is no longer a suitable venue for professional golf.


There, I said it...


F.

[Michael Whitaker]

Marty - I think the green speeds should be slowed instead of sped up. Pros would make fewer birdies, I think, with slower greens. What say you?


Also, what's wrong with having a different par for professional events?

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike,
Well, adding length clearly hasn’t been the answer!!!


 
F.

[Tim_Cronin]

There was also no wind the day Curtis Strange scored his 62, a record that stood for 20-some years. Not sure how often it was equaled before Hatton's 61 today. Kudos to him. Play on, lads.

[David_Tepper]

"That rumbling sound that you hear is Old Tom rolling around in his grave."

To quote Roy Bland in John LeCarre's Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, "Let him rotate." 

Give today's players a course with 9 par-4's under 380 yards (some of them well under) and no wind and you will see a lot of scores in the low 60's.

Ross Fisher played a great round of golf. He really should have shot 60.

Tommy Fleetwood set a new course record at Carnoustie during the tournament as well. Good for him!

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/10/8/hmmm-files-old-course-carnoustie-course-records-fall-during.html

 

[jeffwarne]

I’ll use this opportunity to say it again.


The Old Course, UNLESS THE WIND BLOWS AN ABSOLUTE HOOLIE, is no longer a suitable venue for professional golf.


There, I said it...


F.

You've got it backwards Martin.
Professional golf, is no longer worthy of the Old Course,
compliments of governing bodies gone impotent.


a world gone mad.....

[Mark Pearce]

Why is any of this a problem? In ideal conditions for low scoring a number of the World's best golfers shot low scores.  All of which made for a more interesting final day than might have been the case.  I thought par was just a number?

[Mark Chaplin]

I’ll use this opportunity to say it again.


The Old Course, UNLESS THE WIND BLOWS AN ABSOLUTE HOOLIE, is no longer a suitable venue for professional golf.


There, I said it...


F.

Marty and of course it DID blow a hoolie in the last Open and play was suspended due to the ball moving on the greens!!

[Mark Chaplin]

Just looking at the stats 16 yes sixteen holes played under par yesterday, only 13th at 4.07 and 17th at 4.39 averaged over par for the field.

[Thomas Dai]

My recollection is that the 62 shot by Curtis Strange was played in the former version of the Dunhill Cup, which was also played in October.


As to this years scores a couple of points -


- what were the pin positions like on the final day? (there were Ams playing as well)
- how many top-50 players were playing? Not meaning to criticise those who did well but imagine what the scoring might have been like in such conditions/set-up with a top-50 field.


Agree with Marty above. That’s one of the reasons I’d like to see StA Pro events played on a composite course of Old, Eden, New and Jubilee starting and finishing on TOC.


Atb

[Niall C]

That rumbling sound that you hear is Old Tom rolling around in his grave.

Is that the same Old Tom who fell out with Allan Robertson because he moved from the gutta ball from the featherie, who patented any number of new golf designs over his career to make the game easier, and who happily played the new haskell ball when he was an old man ? Is it the same Old Tom ?


Here's a supplementary question, how far did the course record fall during his lifetime compared to the period of 100 plus years since his death ? Off the top of my head I've no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if you found it was lowered by more than it has in the last 100 years.


Niall


 

[Niall C]

Why is any of this a problem? In ideal conditions for low scoring a number of the World's best golfers shot low scores.  All of which made for a more interesting final day than might have been the case.  I thought par was just a number?

+1

[Tim Gavrich]

To those who find these scores unacceptably low, what would be an acceptable combination of professional tee yardage and lowest score at TOC?

[George Pazin]

Why is any of this a problem? In ideal conditions for low scoring a number of the World's best golfers shot low scores.  All of which made for a more interesting final day than might have been the case.  I thought par was just a number?

The only score that matters in any event is the winning score. Under, over, even, 3&2, 7&6, 1up, who cares?


I'd rather see them play TOC and shoot 62 than at least 90% of the courses out there. Leave the course alone, leave the event alone.

[Jim Nugent]

The problem to me is not low scores per se.  It's how they get them.  Par 4s often stretch out to 500 yards or more these days -- yet often the best players in the world still only have short irons or wedges into them.  This turns fantastic courses -- that used to test every part of touring pros' games -- into drive, pitch and putt affairs.  ANGC among others constantly faces this challenge. 

One answer, again, is to build more long par 3s.  Pros will have to hit long irons or woods to reach these greens in regulation.  If they can birdie a 270 to 300 yard par 3, more power to them.  Average golfers use shorter tees on those holes or play them as reachable par 4s. 

For the pros: 5 par 3s, including 3 real long ones.  3 par 5s, including one true 3-shotter, and two reachable ones.  A variety of par 4s, including half-pars on both sides of the equation, i.e. short and long. 

Course tips out under 7000 yards.  Pro's hit every shot in the bag (and can no longer afford to carry 3 wedges).  Average players have a blast as well.     

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Slow the greens down, increase the slope on them and return to the days when a 6' putt could have a foot of break. Length and high stimp readings are no challenge to the modern tour pro.

[jeffwarne]

Slow the greens down, increase the slope on them and return to the days when a 6' putt could have a foot of break. Length and high stimp readings are no challenge to the modern tour pro.

Heck just use the aready existing areas of green with slope on them and the players will demand the greens be slowed down (OK -not really-they'll demand the pins be moved-but make that a nonstarter)

[Kalen Braley]

Normally I could give a rip about the pros going low on courses, but it seems to me that TOC's primary defenses against high caliber players are its greens, and more specifically to figure out how to get close to the hole when your 170 yards out to a tucked pin.


So seeing the pros go drive - flip wedge and taking all the bumps and humps out of play seems fundamentally off...

[Thomas Dai]

A ‘Masters’ ball is sometimes mentioned.
How about a ‘TOC’ ball?
Might have more impact?
Not sure it’ll ever happen though.
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

A ‘Masters’ ball is sometimes mentioned.
How about a ‘TOC’ ball?
Might have more impact?
Not sure it’ll ever happen though.
Atb

+1

[Jon Wiggett]

A ‘Masters’ ball is sometimes mentioned.
How about a ‘TOC’ ball?
Might have more impact?
Not sure it’ll ever happen though.
Atb

+2

[Matthew Essig]

Agree with Marty above. That’s one of the reasons I’d like to see StA Pro events played on a composite course of Old, Eden, New and Jubilee starting and finishing on TOC.


Atb

I'm curious to hear what routing that would be!

[Matthew Essig]

Agree with Marty above. That’s one of the reasons I’d like to see StA Pro events played on a composite course of Old, Eden, New and Jubilee starting and finishing on TOC.


Atb

I'm curious to hear what routing that would be!

Alright. I gave it a try, with a couple new tees that may or may not be possible thrown in....


They will no longer tee off from 1 on OC. The first hole is a snoozer. Also, I see the R&A now able to line the left side of 18 with grandstands ($$$).


Hole 1: Par 4. 483 yards. 2 on OC from a tee on 1st fairway on other side of the burn. Gives them chance to surround "1st tee" with grandstands ($$$).


Hole 2: Par 5. 640 yards. 4 on OC played from a tee placed where 1 on NC pinches. Drive up 2 on NC, then they can play up either fairway for lay-up. If there is a gale back into the players faces, using the tees on 2 at NC would still have the hole play about 560 yards.


Hole 3: Par 4. 470 yards. A little bit of a walk from the last hole, but worth it. 2 on Eden from new tee left of barn


Hole 4: Par 4. 450 yards. 3 on Eden. Use tee green-high right


Hole 5: Par 3. 220 yards. 4 on Eden. In this routing, there would be no long par 3 without doing a bit of a reduction. I think this hole would be a perfect opportunity for it. Part of it is to move the tee a bit further away from the previous green. Another is playing this as a 280 yard par 4 would not be interesting in the slightest.


Hole 6: Par 3. 178 yards. 8 on Eden. What a crazy cool hole. It had to be included. Only worry would be the gallery traffic around this hole, but I think it can be done.


Hole 7: Par 4. 455 yards. 13 on OC. There is a crossover in front of the 4th tee (3 on Eden), but it would be manageable, and the walk back to the tee wouldn't be that far. The current Open tee would not be able to be used to give room for hole 4 (3 on Eden); however, the hole would still play as intended. It would require an accurate lay up, and with the entire green now open to be used, Saturday it could be 415-420 yards over the grass bunker in front, and Sunday be 480-490 yards to a hole location on the far/back side of the green.


Hole 8: Par 4. 440 yards. 6 on OC, but now the hole will be located on the far side of the green (#12 normally). The green over there makes the approach far more demanding.


Hole 9. Par 3. 174 yards. A little bit of a walk, but again, worth it. 11 on OC. The Eden hole. Nothing more needs to be said.


Hole 10. Par 5. About 555 yards. A little bit of a walk, again, but nothing too outrageous. Reachable par 5 using 12 on NC from 9 on NC tees. It would make for an interesting slightly-angled right fairway off the tee and the bunkers on 8 at NC could be in play with a block.


Hole 11. Par 3. 162 yards. 13 on NC. Might be one of the weakest holes in the routing, but it will be the shortest par 3 in the routing, and all the par 3s face different directions. A new tee would have to be constructed back and to the right in the area of the gorse to give the previous green some playing space/spectator room.


Hole 12. Par 4. 460 yards. 14 on Jubilee with a new tee a little further back. Lots of places the tee could be placed and not really affect any of the holes currently there. Since the green isn't being shared during the tournament, there would be three very unique lobes that the hole could be cut in.


Hole 13. Par 4. 390 yards. 15 on Jubilee. A tee from 5 on Jubilee tee or new tee constructed. Very strategic hole. Great amphitheater setting, too, if I remember correctly.


Hole 14. Par 4. 450 yards. 16 on Jubilee. A new tee would need to be constructed, though this new tee might not be possible. If not, even at 430 yards, this would be another interesting hole. Great angled drive over the dune. If the rough was grown up a little on both sides of the fairway, can make the hole play tough. Another great amphitheater.


Hole 15. Par 4. 455 yards. 15 on OC. This is the biggest hiccup in the routing. Quite a bit of a walk between 14 green to 15 tee. One positive: no other hole crossings. Negative: Crossing the width of 4 fairways. This is the last twist though. Smooth sailing back into town.


Hole 16. Par 4. 423 yards. 16 on OC.


Hole 17. Par 4. 495 yards. 17 on OC.


Hole 18. Par 4. 357 yards. 18 on OC. Like I said at the beginning, grandstand runs down the whole left side now. Mass amounts of spectators can finally see the last hole at an Open at St. Andrews.


In total... 7247 yards, Par 70. Actually 60 yards shorter than the Open tees at the Old Course currenly, but reduction in par makes it play tougher than the yardage says and some vastly more interesting holes than say 3, 9, and 10 on the OC. 

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