Length of Round

[Ira Fishman]

Tim G in his very precise and readable post on the thread about Erin Hills v. Sand Valley noted that EH was going to be 5+ hours no matter what and that SV even with fast players was more than 4 1/2 hours.  I very much remember the old days when emulating Nicklaus on courses that ran tee times 6-7 minutes apart was the norm and led to 5+ hour or more rounds.  However, I thought that we were well past that era.  The last 5 hour round I encountered was on Kapulua Plantation a couple of years ago, and it spoiled the experience. 


I know virtually all of the folks on GCA appreciate playing quickly, but are there really courses out there that are so good that they warrant slow play?


Ira

[Jason Chambers]

Bethpage.  Pebble.  Cypress.  They all end way too quick.  But, 5 hours is ridiculous...

[Tim Fitz]

I can only comment on Erin Hills (haven't play Sand Valley, yet).  In my experience, even when playing with a group that appreciates fast play, it is a 5 hour round.  The green to tee walks are the worst feature of a course I otherwise enjoy. As someone who was playing at an appropriate (for me) tee, after an already lengthy walk I still had to pass several sets of tees before getting to my tee box.  Unlike most courses (where the pros have to walk back to their tee box), Erin Hills seems set up so that the tips are the shortest distance from the green.

While the hills also slow the round down (it can get tiring with all the up and down), the fact that it felt like I was always climbing from green to the next tee (again, on too long a walk), slowed everything down further.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Erin Hills.  But, even with quick players, it is a slow round.

[Jon Wiggett]

No excuse for anything longer than 3.5 hours

[Thomas Dai]

As courses get longer and longer I doubt rounds will take less time.
atb

[Sean_A]

There is no question these larger footprint courses (and championship courses) take more time to play.  However, I think that may be part of the plan in giving golfers an experience to remember.  So much money is handed over the counter that it is difficult to begrudge golfers an extra 30 minutes or so.  I don't like it, but I have the choice to stay away.  Live and let live.

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Wolf Creek in Mesquite this spring. I was told that five hours is the norm because of all the driving between holes. We played relatively quickly but he was right--five hours.

[Adrian_Stiff]

No excuse for anything longer than 3.5 hours

Impossible for a lot of courses and most 3 ball medals, the County are doing M tee start and +5 hrs for afternoons now and the boys say they are often only getting 20 minutes now.


You are governed by what is in front, its just like traffic if it is busy.


Our pace of play is 4hr 32. 136 minutes for each nine. If we multiple start we don't want the first group doing 2 hours for the front nine. With just one start it is fine.


Our second course is 5400 yards, not much walking to next tees and two players if its quiet can do 2hrs 30. 3 ball medals go straight to 4 hours....the golfer takes more care and care equals time.

[jeffwarne]

Carry on....
next generation will be playing 6 hour rounds.(exactly triple what they were doing at the beginning of the century I was born in)
nothing to see here.


any course that has to justify its $$$$ green fee will be built(just in case) for the then 400 yard bombers---with 7 sets of tees so everybody can "play their game"


as noted above, you still have to walk by these tees.


.....perhaps I'll invest in sand to bury a few more heads in..


but hey-chicks dig the long ball-right?


As Sean says, we can vote with our feet, but I'd say our duty as stewards of the game is to educate others on the unintended consequences of poorly regulated technology and promote sustainability in our game.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would certainly be interested in a "study" of golf courses and the time it takes to play them.


Is there a direct correlation between green fee and pace of play?
Does a higher fee say to the customer that he/she is now entitled to "enjoy the course more" by taking their time?


Is this mainly a US issue? Perhaps, but the only 5 hour rounds I have experienced in Scotland were at Castle Stuart.

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian is spot on (since pace of play is critical  to him as these courses are his business and profit center): to speed the pace of play stroke play should be frowned and match play encouraged.


If your opponent wins the hole in match play add (1 or 2) stroke\s to your score if your on the green and head to the next tee if you must post a score for handicap.


Would that result in slightly lower handicaps (vanity-caps)......maybe.


Would it speed up play which is a focus in attracting new players to the game.........yep

[Derek_Duncan]

There is no question these larger footprint courses (and championship courses) take more time to play.  However, I think that may be part of the plan in giving golfers an experience to remember.  So much money is handed over the counter that it is difficult to begrudge golfers an extra 30 minutes or so.  I don't like it, but I have the choice to stay away.  Live and let live.

Ciao

Yes. There's no doubt that the size of a golf course, its features and its hazards can influence longer rounds. But my experience at places like Bandon and Streamsong is that a majority of players are there in groups. Most of the groups have games going on, which can add time because of the grinding on putts and over-analyzation.


There's also added chatter and BS-ing, and since the guys are there as a reprieve from their day to day rather than trying to be back in time for the kid's soccer game, there's little effort to play quick and efficiently. As you say, they're there to soak it in, indulge.


I've also noticed how forecaddies can actually slow play because some players won't hit a shot or read a putt without input, so they stand and wait for the caddie to work through the other players in the group.

[PCCraig]

Frankly, a 5 hour round is not enjoyable...anywhere. Perhaps I'm spoiled where I've been playing for years at a club where rounds hardly ever take more than 4 hours? Courses where you know you are going to run into a long 5+ hour round, places like Pinehurst #2, Whistling Straights, Erin Hills, Bethpage, etc. I would either have to get one of the first tee times of the day or I just would have little interest in playing again.

[JESII]

John Kirk came up with an interesting theory a few years ago about the direct relationship between the length of time a ball is moving after it is on the ground and the quality of the golf...and it's pretty flawless.


The amount of time/distance spent between holes has an inverse relationship to my enjoyment of a round.


There can be 5 hour rounds because a group is slow but to hear that Erin Hills takes 5 hours for a fast group to play is really troublesome.

[Tim Martin]

Frankly, a 5 hour round is not enjoyable...anywhere. Perhaps I'm spoiled where I've been playing for years at a club where rounds hardly ever take more than 4 hours? Courses where you know you are going to run into a long 5+ hour round, places like Pinehurst #2, Whistling Straights, Erin Hills, Bethpage, etc. I would either have to get one of the first tee times of the day or I just would have little interest in playing again.

Pat-The first sentence of your reply is spot on. Even for the guys that are posing for pictures so that they can download them to social media in real time should be wary of that sort of time commitment. Don’t act like you don’t know what I’m talking about. YOU know who you are.

[Jon Wiggett]

No excuse for anything longer than 3.5 hours

Impossible for a lot of courses and most 3 ball medals, the County are doing M tee start and +5 hrs for afternoons now and the boys say they are often only getting 20 minutes now.


You are governed by what is in front, its just like traffic if it is busy.


Our pace of play is 4hr 32. 136 minutes for each nine. If we multiple start we don't want the first group doing 2 hours for the front nine. With just one start it is fine.


Our second course is 5400 yards, not much walking to next tees and two players if its quiet can do 2hrs 30. 3 ball medals go straight to 4 hours....the golfer takes more care and care equals time.

Adrian,


I understand where you are coming from but such arguments as saying 'impossible' are really just excuses for not doing anything. Clearly as you say yourself it is possible to do 18 holes in 3.5 hours and this is also the case for a 4 ball playing individual medal. The thing is it needs a concerted effort by all involved which includes the golfers as well. As a facility owner I fully understand why you do not do anything about it as it would be unpopular. It really needs the tours both professional and top amateur to set an example and actually walk the walk when it comes to speed of play.


Jon

[Mike Hendren]

Generally, in the 5th hour of a round I'll ask myself:  "Where would I rather be in the next hour?"  My response, courtesy of W. C. Handy is "I'd rather be here than any place I know." 

Either you guys play too much golf or are far more important than I've been lead to believe. 

Also, I've played Erin Hills twice at around 4 hours.  If R.J. Daley and I can scrape it around in that time, it ain't the architecture.

Cheers,

Bogey

[Thomas Dai]

My gut-feel from playing private members club golf over the years/decades, and it's just observation, is that golf is now played in 4's more often than previously, ie there used to be more 2-balls and 3-balls.
atb

[David Davis]

I think it's the norm to have these super long rounds at courses like Erin Hills. First of all they are open to the public and the average 25 hcp golfer who wants to play from the pro tees yet still hole out for 15 on each hole just to say they did it. Most of the notable courses can be like this. As mentioned, Pebble, Bethpage, Kiawah, TPC Sawgrass, Whistling Straits and even Bandon though to a slightly lesser extent in my experience.


This summer I experienced the longest round of my life. Let's just call it 6 hours. Pinehurst #2, 97 degrees outside, greens were baked out and super fast for Pinehurst #2. I kid you not that I literally watched the flag be put in and taken out a minimum of 3 times on every single green. No need to play through as this block-up was consistent with all the 4 balls I could see in front of the group in front of us.


To me this was ridiculous, watching people putting off all the greens was priceless, well for the first hole, after that I felt bad for them.


Sure I could of chosen to go in I guess but I had good company so we had a good laugh and drank lots of water while working on our tans.


The most painful round I've ever experienced that wasn't in a storm with torrential rains and at least those play normally very fast.

[Adrian_Stiff]

No excuse for anything longer than 3.5 hours

Impossible for a lot of courses and most 3 ball medals, the County are doing M tee start and +5 hrs for afternoons now and the boys say they are often only getting 20 minutes now.


You are governed by what is in front, its just like traffic if it is busy.


Our pace of play is 4hr 32. 136 minutes for each nine. If we multiple start we don't want the first group doing 2 hours for the front nine. With just one start it is fine.


Our second course is 5400 yards, not much walking to next tees and two players if its quiet can do 2hrs 30. 3 ball medals go straight to 4 hours....the golfer takes more care and care equals time.

Adrian,


I understand where you are coming from but such arguments as saying 'impossible' are really just excuses for not doing anything. Clearly as you say yourself it is possible to do 18 holes in 3.5 hours and this is also the case for a 4 ball playing individual medal. The thing is it needs a concerted effort by all involved which includes the golfers as well. As a facility owner I fully understand why you do not do anything about it as it would be unpopular. It really needs the tours both professional and top amateur to set an example and actually walk the walk when it comes to speed of play.


Jon

Read what I said not what you think I said.

[Kalen Braley]

Generally, in the 5th hour of a round I'll ask myself:  "Where would I rather be in the next hour?"  My response, courtesy of W. C. Handy is "I'd rather be here than any place I know." 

Either you guys play too much golf or are far more important than I've been lead to believe. 

I couldn't possibly agree more with Bogey on this one.


I guess I also look at it like this...Given a standard 4 hour round, with 30 minutes of pre-round warm up and perhaps 30-60 minutes of travel time (to and fro), and then 30 minutes of post round bs/drink at the bar, you've already made a solid 6 hour time commitment. Is it really that much of a "killer" to stretch that out to 7 hours?  Especially when you consider a course like Erin Hills that's likely already a full day committment anyways?


But say you stick to the 6 hours, what you're gonna spend that "other" hour at home where your significant other is now either nagging your ears off or having you do items on the Honey-do list.  I'm with bogey, spend that extra time on the course! 

[Tim Gallant]

I played Ballybunion last month, and I would say that despite the 4.5+ hour round, it was well worth it!


I tend to agree with Sean and think of it like this: when you live in a big city and you are walking to work, it drives you up the wall when tourists are walking three abreast at the pace of a snail. But when you go to another city, you are all too happy to pull the phone out to take photos and check directions. I've come to accept it in the city in which I reside, and at the golf course I play at.


In a 4-ball stroke-play medal, I would say 4 hour rounds are the norm (although never more than 4:10). That said, our course has a good amount of visitor play, and I know that it will be a slow round if I happen to go out during the visitor times. But why get upset at them for enjoying their round? In fact, when I host groups playing the course for the first time, I am always sure that they get photos at certain points where the lighting is best and the scenery is breathtaking. It probably adds 10 minutes onto the round, but as A N Other said, what would I be doing at home?


All that said, I do play quick and enjoy to play quick even in medals. Evidenced by the fact that my buddy and I played 18 at Kilspindie at 5:30am in an hour 40! And we both shot season bests

[Tim Gavrich]

I like playing fast rounds of golf and I dislike waiting, but even so, I think we have to be careful about applying a single universal standard to golf courses that are built in different contexts and meant to be experienced by different clienteles in different ways.


Erin Hills:


- A one-course destination resort built to host championship golf on a massive, rumpled property. The course can be as long as 7,800+ yards. Being a U.S. Open host, visitors tend to play a longer set of tees than they probably should.
- Its architects went out of their way to move as little earth as possible in building it, leading to some longer and uphill green-to-tee walks.
- Most people who play it have traveled there on a golf excursion/vacation of some kind. They are not regulars.
- Whether they know it upon booking or not, they are usually playing one round there in a given day and are taking in not just the course but the whole village-like facility.
- People who are playing Erin Hills are playing it for the first time or perhaps every year or so. Again, they are not regulars. Even with counsel of caddies, they misplay certain shots/holes, leading to big numbers.
- Erin Hills caddies carry doubles, for the most part. This means that when a caddie's players' shots end up far apart, because of the width of the holes, it takes extra time to attend to them, which slows things down.


Bottom line: I just don't see how a foursome is going to play in much less than five hours unless they make some significant compromises in their normal routine of play (mainly, by picking up on several holes if they start going awry).


Contrast this to...


A classic, ODG-designed country club course where players walk with caddies:


- It is built on a compact piece of property, say <200 acres, to be conservative. Green-to-tee walks are short and flat, by and large.
- The course is probably under 7,000 yards from the tips, and in any case it is mostly played from 6,000-6,500-yard tees, at most.
- Its clientele are overwhelmingly members, who are repeat players. They know the course extremely well and can choose clubs for their next shot almost immediately.
- Members get in trouble for playing slower than a well-established (by their fellow members) pace. There is an incentive for playing in X amount of time, not just because of the rules but also because of family/work commitments that may be on the schedule after the round. In other words, these rounds are part of "normal life" (i.e. not a vacation).


Bottom line: Rounds here should take less than four hours in almost all circumstances.


Expecting rounds at both to take the same amount of time at these two courses doesn't make sense to me because these courses plainly exist in different contexts. They offer different sorts of golf experiences. Judging them against one another is going to lead to frustration more often than insight.

[PCCraig]

Expecting rounds at both to take the same amount of time at these two courses doesn't make sense to me because these courses plainly exist in different contexts. They offer different sorts of golf experiences. Judging them against one another is going to lead to frustration more often than insight.

Totally, I agree Tim. That was my main point, if I know a course consistently takes 5+ hours to play I might play it once but I would be hard pressed to do again. Which is a shame because there are many great golf courses that deserve to be played many times to be appreciated, but can't due to $ or time.

[JESII]

Generally, in the 5th hour of a round I'll ask myself:  "Where would I rather be in the next hour?"  My response, courtesy of W. C. Handy is "I'd rather be here than any place I know." 

Either you guys play too much golf or are far more important than I've been lead to believe. 

I couldn't possibly agree more with Bogey on this one.

Longer is not better...I’m Irish and sticking to it.