DeVries Vs Hanse...original work

[BCowan]

I'm very surprised there isn't more discussion on the topic

I was a bit surprised at first, too, but if you think about it they have not built that many courses, and it's starting to look like the posters in the DG have not played that many of them!


I've seen four of Mike's five courses in the U.S. [all except Diamond Springs], but only two of those on your list for Gil.  [I've also seen his two in Scotland.]  I think their work is pretty different - as with their personalities - but I'm not going to step out here and make a lot of comparisons or choose a favorite ... especially when nobody else is going out on that limb first.


Gil does like water hazards a lot more than me or Bill Coore, or Mike, from what I've seen.


Robert Mercer Deruntz:  regarding Rustic Canyon vs. Kingsley, it's easier to make a design be more about angles when you don't have much topography to consider.  Kingsley is a very hilly site and the topo would have dictated the routing a lot more there, whereas Rustic Canyon has a lot of linear hazards due to the dry wash that comes through the site.

Tom,


   You really need to make it to Diamond Springs, I'm pissed i haven't made it back to take photos. It's one cut meld I think u would like and it's the definition of sustainable golf with some incredibly good land forms.  I hear it's over watered on regular basis, I'll need to see again for myself.  It's rather sad how many on this site haven't been to it (not u, u go to lots of Doak 5 & 6s).  I think it shows we have too many AW on here, jmo

[Tom_Doak]

Meanwhile, while I enjoyed Crystal Downs, the first two holes have plenty of room for extra width that they don't use for some reason, and the 10th hole is cut such that the best angle of approach into the green is 10-15 yards into the right rough. 

Not anymore.  We've kept the mowing lines inside what the irrigation system will water on #1 and #2, but they are both widened, and more importantly the first cut of rough is now short enough that you can consider using the extra width when you want to.  And #10 fairway is widened out to the old 150 marker post on the right, right where I always tried to play it.

[BCowan]

Boston gc vs Kingsley


Greywalls vs Rustic

[Bill Seitz]

Meanwhile, while I enjoyed Crystal Downs, the first two holes have plenty of room for extra width that they don't use for some reason, and the 10th hole is cut such that the best angle of approach into the green is 10-15 yards into the right rough. 

Not anymore.  We've kept the mowing lines inside what the irrigation system will water on #1 and #2, but they are both widened, and more importantly the first cut of rough is now short enough that you can consider using the extra width when you want to.  And #10 fairway is widened out to the old 150 marker post on the right, right where I always tried to play it.

Thanks for the update, Tom.  I haven't had a chance to get back since we played it with you about five years or so ago. 

[Bill Seitz]

Correction, I meant the 12th and did not realize that the one key had been hit in stead.  The 8th is a wide fairway, but more room on the left would increase interest, since the green has a lot of cool contouring.  If the 7th fairway was extended left, it would offer a more uphill, longer, but more direct approach.  The hole can be hit in two, but being enticed to take the risk from the left would make it a better hole

12th hole is about as wide as it can possibly get.  There's really no room on the right to widen the fairway, since anything hit further right than the current cut would just run back to the middle anyway, and you're running over into the property line on the left.  The risk there is going for the speed slot on the right and leaving it on the hill.  I don't think there's anything I'd change about the width on that fairway.  Since most balls in the fairway end up middle or left side, it play really well to that green site.  Front pins are (obviously) shorter, but more difficult to access from that angle, while back pins add length, but a little more forgiveness with the kick plate on the right.  The eighth hole has similar property line issues on the left, and with the way that green sets up, leaving a lot of room unguarded to the left would almost make the approach too easy.  The green clearly calls for an approach from the left side, but there ought to be some challenge to getting the ball in the proper spot for that approach. 


As for 7, I could see thinning out some of the trees on the left, but I certainly wouldn't get rid of more than half of them.  I think all of the risk of trying to get home from two on 7 is in the tee shot itself.  There's not a lot of danger around the green unless you blow it way right and pin high.  The risky part there is hitting driver off the tee and possibly being forced to deal with those trees. 


But I'm pretty unapologetic in my Kingsley homerism, so take that for what it's worth.

[David Davis]

Why is Cape Wickham not involved in this discussion? Ranking wise if I'm not mistaken it's the only Top 100 courses either has in the list.


Without going into the validity of rankings (same old story).


Or is everyone suggesting that Kingsley is Mike's best courses?

[BCowan]

Why is Cape Wickham not involved in this discussion? Ranking wise if I'm not mistaken it's the only Top 100 courses either has in the list.


Without going into the validity of rankings (same old story).


Or is everyone suggesting that Kingsley is Mike's best courses?

Nope, Kingsley is more assessible to a greater number of folks on here. This I believe is more N American focused. 

[Tom_Doak]

 is everyone suggesting that Kingsley is Mike's best course?

Nope, Kingsley is more assessible to a greater number of folks on here. This I believe is more N American focused.

Well, that makes sense for you, since you haven't been overseas.  For me, you've eliminated 1/3 of the "original work" I've seen of theirs, and you've eliminated the highest-ranked course by each of them.

[BCowan]

Well then start comparing their courses instead of going PC on us. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Regarding the 12th, the trees on the left are close to the fairway, but I was not aware the property line is so close to the fairway.  The back tee tend to aim toward the left,and more width on that side would create an approach from a poor angle.  At Rustic, and probably all of Hanse's designs, there are holes designed to lure you into playing away from the optimal approach.  The 12th at Kingsley has that potential if the fairway were expanded to the left
By the way, I think Kingsley is a superb course, but believe that Rustic is a more sophisticated design.  And as I stated earlier, the greens complexes are truely great!

[Garland Bayley]

Well then start comparing their courses instead of going PC on us.

Hasn't he already? It's called the CG.