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Matt_Ward

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2003, 11:04:39 AM »
Steve Lang:

I went to school in the south (Univ of S. Carolina) and played much golf on the surface. In the winter I didn't mind it because since it was dormant you could count on some type of roll when executing shots.

Yes, I did grow up on bent type conditions but the thing about Bemuda is that when it's not closely cropped you get the "Huffman Koos" carpet effect -- ditto that with Zyosia and other similar type grasses. It's really nothing more than a heavy duty thatch type grass that doesn't gell with the firm'n fast conditions many, myself included, prefer.

Mike Cirba:

No doubt -- overwatered slop -- otherwise known as bent in hot and humid climates, doesn't work either. I don't doubt that when top flight management stays on top of things it's possible to have a quality bermuda surface -- I can remember several rounds at LACC as proof positive of that. However, Bermuda greens are just no where near the same consistency that bent provides. I don't doubt that figuring out which way a ball bounces several times on the way to the cup is a skill --it's just one I have never developed or desired.

Adam:

My good man -- the two courses mentioned -- Apace Stronghold and The Hideout were no where near the kind of turf conditions that reasonable golf can be played. I don't doubt that improvements have happened with AS since my last visit but I was just at The Hideout and when there is no grass -- nada -- zippo -- on many of the greens you can't have quality golf. Let me also stress again that there are a number of outstanding holes at both but some aspect of uniformity in turf conditions is not expecting or asking for much IMHO.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2003, 11:31:59 AM »
Matt- You've not only missed my point you mislead the world. You say you were just at The Hideout and as I recall that was mid-May. Especially in terms of agronomy that is an entire season and parts of two others. The magnitude of change that can occurr in that period of time is enormous. Now, if you've been here since since May, I apologize, but I was in Monticello in May and July and the improvement was enormous.

As for AS, I am at a loss how you could feel that "reasonable golf" cannot or wasn't playable on that turf. Even in it's delapadated  shape, as I saw it in early June, other than color, the lies were more than reasonable and because of the close crop, the bermuda lie tees'em up almost like a good Kikuyu.

Hell man, you can almost see the entire underside of the ball. Now that's teed up.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2003, 11:55:06 AM »
As to allegations of overwatering, keep in mind that it is not unusual to have thunderstorms almost every afternoon in the summer in most of the SE; so you can't blame it all on the maintenance program.

That said, it can still work out fine. At the Walker Cup the greens were supposedly rolling around 13 at R Jones' masterpiece Ocean Forest.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2003, 12:09:03 PM »
The problem with the dwarf bermudas is not in attaining ultra-fast speeds.  Rather, it is finding a balance in speed and receptiveness for the regular player.  At higher heights to slow them down, it is hard to keep the grain out of them.  To make it so they hold, they have to be heavily watered.  A Texas superintendent recently told me that they also have to be more frequently aereated, and we all know how much golfers like punched and sanded greens.  Also, there appears to be a lot of concern about the ability of Champions and Tiff-Eagle to survive a cold, dessicating spell.  On the plus side, some superintendents have been able to maintain the bermuda through the winter without overseeding.  This helps overcome the transition objections, but some players don't like the look of dormant greens.  When are bermuda greens the best in terms of putting performance?  For me it is when the grass is dormant, even if overseeded with bent, rye, or poa trivialis.  

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2003, 02:18:36 PM »
If you don't overseed your hybrid bermuda greens and don't llike the dormant brown color, I understand it's possible to dye them green.  I've been trying to get our long time greens committee chair to agree to even a test of not overseeding.  The response was to make me chairman of the golf (competition) committee and remove me from the greens (facility) committee!   ???

The reason I'm a bit agitated about this is that our young superintendent's mentor, a southern university agronomist, feels we would have no negative impact if we chose not to overseed with poa trivialis but the dormant color.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 02:19:52 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2003, 02:52:11 PM »
Lou, The tiff eagles etc are great especially if you do not over seed. We are too far south for bent and even with fans it is a reach. The problem I see is the dwarfs  are a new grass and the supers are few and far between that really are confident in dealing with it. It must be aggresinely verticut and even dethatched if the vc does not work. You should not have anything but very good to great greens year round if the super will stay the course and not over water and/or let them get to high creating the thatch. It will be another 5 plus years before the kinks are worked out and the learning curve is there.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2003, 04:33:49 PM »
Anybody have good examples of fans ruining the aesthetics of good golf courses trying to grow bent in the South?  My prime example is a very good course in Ponte Vedra, private club Plantation CC.  Every green had at least four and sometimes six R2D2 looking oscillating fans encircling the green surface, mounted there in the froghair grass.  What a spectacle!  Haven't been there for several years, but heard last week from my member friend that they gave up on the bent and put in TifEagle.  Ban the fan!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2003, 10:10:02 PM »
 ;D

Matt, Matt, Matt,  methinks your attempted use of probabilistic models in an overt attempt at evolutionary optimization in this thread has mostly been used to focus on continuous representations and techniques.  

This negative hypothesis is flawed, and "I take umbrage at that remark"... though the discussion and opinions on bermuda has certainly been enlightening, now that I've returned from working mind..

I simply don't subscribe to a "tour concept" defining quality golf, i.e, that its only available around the world in the best seasonal conditions and only with firm and fast environment, greens stimping 13.  I don't live or tour on that planet and am really tired of it being endlessy held up as "the ideal".  

When I conceptualize and then play a 135-yard pop 5-wood out of a buried bermuda hill-side lie and make par, that's quality golf.

Regards,
TXSeve  



 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 10:11:16 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2003, 10:26:53 PM »
No, Matt. Golf was always meant to be played on a nearly perfect sward of evenly distributed and genetically perfect fescues or bents. The intrusion of any broad-leafed plants, weeds, wire grasses or other annoying turf types were prohibited by the King of England. In 1546 there were many executions as a result of those attempting to play on anything but such surfaces. In fact, those caught playing on such surfaces were put to death or exiled to France. A few were sent to New Jersey.

I have no idea what you mean by "quality" golf. Quality golf to me is the undeniable friendship of a few companions, a great setting and looking forward to what happens after the round. Taking in the moment, laughing and generally having a tremendous distance between myself and anything remotely along the lines of what type of grass we played upon.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2003, 11:40:32 PM »
Pat Mucci,
They've already played a US Am on bermuda in FL during the summer. A young kid named Eldrick(sp?) won the tourney.

To all,
I have to admit that all this negative talk about bermuda bums me out. Bermuda is a GREAT playing surface if you keep it lean on the fertility side and turn off the water. I used to dry down my course in AZ prior to overseed. The first year I was a supt. during overseed, I turned off the water for two weeks prior to scalping. It stayed green the whole time in 100+ tempatures. Bermuda is tough, a lot tougher then most give it credit for. Just don't expect it to be lush green and fast. If color matters, it's a bad grass, if playing conditions are the only thing that matters, it's a great grass. As for bermuda greens, I've seen awesome bermuda greens in the Palm Springs, Tucson, and Phoenix areas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2003, 05:58:34 AM »
Don Mahaffey,

Long before a kid named Eldrick won in Florida,
Jupiter Hills hosted the US Amateur, and
Many years before that,
Pine Tree hosted the US Senior Amateur.

Were the greens Eldrick won on, Bermuda ?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2003, 09:22:17 AM »
Pat,
I should have known better then to try and debate Fl golf and USGA history with you :)

Yes, the greens at TPC Sawgrass are bermuda. They are overseeded during the Players Champ., but were pure bermuda (tifdwarf I believe) during the am.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2003, 10:57:16 AM »
Quality golf can be played on Bermuda.  It may be different golf but it is still quality.
The ultra-dwarfs do work.  But they require constant verti-grooming and more verti cutting than other bermudas.  they also must not be allowed to grow much over .125 or they have a tendacy to become thatchy.  It seems that paint works better than overseeding since it is hard for the seed to work into the surface.
We are also seeing in the south that the dessication can be stopped by using a soil base instead of sand.  And this can lead to greater cost savings.
I have used it in Latin america for several years and it grows year round.  We cut at .125, verti groom daily, vert-cut once every two weeks and it is a great grass.
I think Don is correct when he discusses fert. methods regarding the grass...it seems supts here that were growing the other bermudas don't handle the ultra as well until they start to manage more like a bentgrass.
BUT this topic leads to something I have said before.  Golf in the south is different.  It is ridiculous for us to try and have some of the features that are seen on courses that are cool season.  For ex: our bnkers are not natural bunkers as in a sand based environment thus they are a constannt problem when flashed etc.  Our catches require piped basins unlike sand base and our long grasses are much much thicker than cool season grasses.  If you remember the PGA that Trevino won at Shoal Creek.  tyhe rough was unplayable...it was 5 inches.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2003, 11:09:48 AM »
Mike-

I've yet to play the ultra-dwarf bermudas which perform like bent.  Our club did not overseed its Champions greens this past winter, and they actually putted better than when they're growing.  No doubt that certain areas have no choice but to grow bermuda or a paspalum.  But given the choice, as one who has played quite a bit in both, I'll take bent with a few fans and/or a forced-air system than the new hybrid bermudas with over-seeding.  Perhaps if we all had a Don Mahaffey nurturing our courses, I might think differently.

Matt_Ward

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2003, 01:21:37 PM »
For those who prefer to twist what I said -- my point was and is a simple one -- the game of golf needs to include the bounce of the ball in order for quaility golf IMHO to be played. Bermuda and grasses of similar type do not include the bounce to anywhere near the level I am referring to. Steve -- best of the luck with the 5-wood from the buried bermuda lie you mentioned. I need to learn that shot for future use. ;D

When a ball hits the carpet / bermuda in full bloom you get the maximization of the point-to-point golf that is really limiting for me. Heck, if people like playing off it on a 24/7 basis more power to them.

Adam:

I'm not going to debate what I saw regarding The Hideout. I mentioned I really enjoyed quite a few of the holes there (i.e. the 9th and 18th, to list just two) but I also added a few comments on a number of holes that needed some sort of adjustment. I would certainly be very interested in returning but I know what I saw on a number of the greens when I was there.

I take you at your word regarding the improvements that have since happened but please realize that my eyes function quite well from the time I was there. If the same conditions persisted I would not recommend someone making that short trek to Monticello until things turned around. I enjoyed the course and I would hope things are indeed as you described.

Forrest:

Quality golf is what I defined above. I don't doubt for a second the importance of good companions to enjoy the experience.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2003, 02:14:58 PM »
Matt,

FYI, all grasses, and soil conditions are susceptible to less than perfect playing conditions. It's been kicked to death here how the window of opportunity for "quality golf" at any given course is limited.

The answer to your question remains a wholehearted "YES", and you could pick any other grass species, the same answer will arise.

Turn it around and ask if fescue on sandy soil can play less than ideal, and see what kind of answers pop up.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2003, 03:03:09 PM »
Matt,

Then I disagree with your definition of "quality golf". You are one who is obsessed with the conditions of golf courses and I doubt that you could overcome this when visiting any golf course. Your posts speak for themselves in this regard.

However — and importantly — I do not hold this against you. I believe it is good to have a contingent of golf course architectural buffs and writers who look at the conditions of courses more than others.

But, I still am one who is interested in the design and its uniqueness more than anything. The condition of a golf course is merely a point in time. It can change overnight. It will change over time. The grip of nature is far more essential and tight than the grip of the hands of man once a course takes shape.

Conditioning is a rather recent component tof golf. You mention above that you cannot have decent golf without good turf quality on greens. Yet, as we all know, the very idea of "greens" is an invention of the past 150+/- years. In fact, accounts of rough and dirty ground at the locations of holes is on the record, both in written form and from photographs.

While I prefer complete greens — and know they are here to stay — the manicured surfaces from which we putt and take for granted in today's golf is a softening of the real game. I foresee a movement back to slower greens with more dramatic contouring. Although this will be hard to sell to some, it is all a part of the larger picture to loosen up on the tight "nail-clipper" precision that we have come to integrate into our courses, our terminology, our writing, and our assumptions.

By the way, once the chinch bug infestation was diagnosed at The Hideout, it took but a few weeks to get all their greens back in shape and — as you would describe — "playable". Interestingly, however, many played there while the chinch bugs ate away at the bent and colored it orange and yellow. All-the-while having good times and probably cussing the little devils for their selective migration.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2003, 11:07:15 PM »
Mike young- You bring up an interesting point about how the "standard" bunker doesn't work in some spots(most) in the south.

I haven't played all that much down there , but some, and as I recall some of the best features were rarely bunkers. They were more of the natural waste area type, sometimes flat some trees, with a thin layer of that fine sand or like TF's WWPB.
This seems like no brainer advice for future florida developers to heed the "obvious" from the boys in the trenches.

Lou- I was fortunate to golf the el diablo when Don Maidlow was still there and I hink he had a new dwarf on his greens, and as I recall, they were purer than pure. He spoke very highly of them. Don, at that time (2000) also remarked about WW and how their standardized maintenance was ruining their grass. If you've heard anything lately about conditions at WWPB and WWRO, they are "less than glowing".


TEPaul

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2003, 11:54:37 AM »
I've always like playing on bermuda grass and greens. The reason is probably because I'm basically a Northeast golfer who knows bent grass conditions and bermuda grass is so different and another type of experience (I like "difference" in both golf and golf architecture).

But I've played plenty of golf on bermuda grass in the south and I like the challenge of recovery out of greenside rough which I basically hit like a bunker explosion shot. And I like the challenge of bermuda greens too because for some reason as much as I've tried I can't really pick up the influences of grain and how much that might influence both break and speed. Over the years I guess I've just gone about it in sort of a visceral way.

But to answer specifially Matt Ward's final question in his initial post----"Am I somewhere out in left field or does this question have some merit?"---I'd say the absolute correct answer is----both!
;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2003, 12:25:49 PM »
Redanman,

I have been out of the warm season turf area fro ten years, but here goes....correct me if I'm wrong, y'all!

The new strains of bermuda that can only be established vegetatively are sterile. This means sprigging is the only option. However, there are some newer strains that do reproduce, thus are able to put out seed...thus can be established by seeding. I am not familiar enough with these new varieties to know the characteristics ie. fairway/ tee/ green use.

All bermudagrass strains are rhizomatous....scientific word for "shoots creeping below ground"...basically. The shoots drop off a node now and then for root structure. The finer bermudagrasses grow the nodes closer together.

Joe
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 11:56:24 PM by JHancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2003, 12:30:38 PM »
TE that is one of the ways I play out of deep greenside grass. I will say right on to Don and Mike for that is a very professional way to state my opinions on the new bermudas strains and bermuda in general. It will get better over the next decade too as new strain come to the market. Lou I am not sure where you are coming from except yes it is more work and challenging to maintain and nothing seems as good as bent at its best. It is hard if not impossible IMHO to keep bent in good shape through the summer fans or no fans below I 10 and maybe below I 20.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 09:02:17 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2003, 06:09:26 PM »
The only thing I want to do on Bermuda is play 36 on the Mid Ocean Club!!!!  

p.s and then maybe 18 more . . .

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2003, 11:38:18 PM »
I just came back from a week of golf in the southeast.  I played Kinloch in Richmond, Va and found the L93 bent grass a fine surface to hit from.  It, however, was   neither firm nor fast, which I like.  I went to Musgrove Mill GC in SC and found their bermuda fairways a mixture of brown and green, and cut down to the nubs.    The surface was fast and firm and the ball rolled as if on fescue in an Irish August.  The greens were bent and stimped at about 11.  I also played a great old course in Aiken Called Palmeto GC.  There the bermuda fairways were shaggy and green and offered no roll. The ball, however, sat up very nicely as if on a tee.  

I have played enough golf to know that the quality of the turf is not dependent upon the grass but on the membership and their instructions to the green superintendant.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

TEPaul

Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2003, 08:51:11 AM »
Joe:

That's an impressive (technical) description of bermuda grass! I tried to pronounce rhizomatous audibly and I'm still trying to get my tongue unstuck from the back of my teeth!  ;)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can quality golf really be played on bermuda?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2003, 09:00:37 AM »
tommy W does a nice job of describing the different ways bermuda can play. Maintenance is the key.

No other grass that offers so much variety. From its dormant state in the winter to it's aggressive forms in the summer, bermuda can set up wildly different playing conditions.
 
You gotta manage it. You gotta stay on top of it.

But if you do, it's a wonderful turf.

Bob
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 11:06:30 AM by BCrosby »