When did Tour officials have their jewels cut out

[jeffwarne]

For Christ's sake, tell him NO-it's not reasonable and get on with it.


What kind of precedent are these morons setting?


It's called undue delay.(I've been on the wrong side of that on a ruling that took 1/10th this long)
AND they're getting it wrong.


Once he drops it he's NOT going that way, and NEVER was.


rooting for him to make a 10 (or more)

[jeffwarne]

15 minutes later-into the stands
edit-it was 20


rooting for higher than a 10 but I'm guessing he gets another advantaged drop.
There it is-drop, place, drop --par


and I used to like Sergio...


I bet Pat Perez behind them has a different take than the two morons smiling as they walk off the green. --Rumor has it they're going to make Mickelson a Captain's pick for the Tour Championship:(


Whatever happened to protecting the field?

[Jim Nugent]

You beat me to it.  Beyond absurd.  Do the rules of golf really permit that free drop?

[jeffwarne]

Jim,
he had to convice the official he was actually going to hit it backwards off the rock AND that that would interfere with his swing.(he was saying his handle would hit the wall-Sergio has a lot of lag but his hands wouldn't be 18 inches ahead at impact)


He failed on both counts and the official knew it.


20 minutes-wow


Johnny had an early choice comment that I think the producers told him to back off on (a reference to Seve but in  today's politically correct world it might've been taken differently)

[Jerry Kluger]

I am not making excuses as the time it is taking is insufferable but it does show that Sergio really cares about making it to Eastlake which is kind of refreshing.

[BCowan]

Jim,
he had to convice the official he was actually going to hit it backwards off the rock AND that that would interfere with his swing.(he was saying his handle would hit the wall-Sergio has a lot of lag but his hands wouldn't be 18 inches ahead at impact)


He failed on both counts and the official knew it.


20 minutes-wow


Johnny had an early choice comment that I think the producers told him to back off on (a reference to Seve but in  today's politically correct world it might've been taken differently)

Despite his flaws, how can anyone not like Johnny Miller?  Jeff, here is a thread for you.  I don't watch Pro golf hardly at all, like watching paint dry.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63371.0.html

[Jim Nugent]

So manufacture a fake stance, on a fake shot, use that fakery to get free relief in a hazard, and then hit the opposite shot from the one you claim you needed relief for. 

It didn't look to me like the stands interfered with his fake shot in the first place. 

Different question: do the stands, fans and TV apparatus in these events make the courses easier than they are without all that?  Players often get line of sight relief, swing relief, stance relief, trampled rough, etc., that saves the strokes. 

[jeffwarne]

I am not making excuses as the time it is taking is insufferable but it does show that Sergio really cares about making it to Eastlake which is kind of refreshing.

It's refreshing that someone would grind for potentially $10,000,000?


The official should've nipped it in the bud.


Sergio was referencing players that bank it off the wall at St. Andrews.
sacriledge.
Nobody's banking it with their ball FLUSH against the wall (or rock)

[Rob Marshall]

What about the Charlie Hofmann bunker lining drop. I think the quote from his playing partner (paraphrasing) was "are you Fing kidding me?" That was just as bad. Goes back to the old saying the rules can help you as well as hurt you. Why it took so long was the officials fault not Sergio's. It appeared the official was getting advice from someone not at the hole. It should have been a yes or no. Move on.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Haha.  this reminds me, I was playing in a Mid-Am once and tried to get a favorable ruling because to play a bank shot off a tree I was standing on the cart path, therefore I felt I was entitled to free relief.  The walking rules official called in the tournament director who promptly told me to get lost.  I played the bank shot standing on the path anyway on the way to a triple and a missed cut.  Good times.

[Thomas Dai]

Very disappointing episode.
Perhaps Jean van de Velde wasn't creative enough in his potential shotmaking at Carnoustie?!:)
atb

[Matthew Petersen]

Large part of the problem here is the ridiculous unnatural rock strewn stream Faz built on that hole. There's nothing in nature that looks like that within 200 miles of Conway Farms.

[Kalen Braley]

Not to beat a dead horse, but still wonder why the reaction to Sergio is vitriol....when he was justified under the rules  http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/after-all-too-long-ruling-sergio-saves-his-par/


But when Spieth did essentially the same thing, incurring a much longer delay to boot, he was praised for using the rules to his advantage.

[Carl Johnson]

Who are the officials in an event like this?  Does the Tour have a regular stable of guys who interact with the players every week?  I have no idea, but my thinking is that maybe these guys and the players become buddies over time and they all view themselves as part of the same team.  Therefore, the officials may from time to time be friendlier with the player they are personally involved with on the ruling than they should be, as contrasted with protecting the field, who they are not personally engaged with at the time.


In any case, as I watched on TV I could not believe it.  Also, I could not believe I could not hear jeers coming from the adjacent stands.  Maybe the mikes weren't positioned to pick them up, or maybe the spectators ("patrons" at certain events) also had jewelry issues.

[JESII]

Does anyone have the video when he was imitating the swing that would have hit the ball against the rock?


I'm having a difficult time seeing how the structure would have been in his swing...

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Was Sergio's situation like Spieth's? 


Sergio was in a hazard and looking for free drop.  To get the free drop, he contended that the TIO interfered with his planned shot...which was to face the opposite direction and bank his ball off a rock.  It was unclear how the TIO would have interfered with his follow through.  The rock he would use to bank his ball would have blocked any follow through.


Spieth, on the other hand, took an unplayable lie penalty under which one of his options was to go as far back as he liked, keeping the site of the unplayable lie between him and the hole.  The drop was complicated by the presence of the equipment trucks and the presence of the dune, which made it more difficult to determine when the spot was between him and the hole.


BTW, Spieth had a major championship on the line.  Sergio was trying to qualify for the Tour Championship.

[Kalen Braley]

Was Sergio's situation like Spieth's? 


Sergio was in a hazard and looking for free drop.  To get the free drop, he contended that the TIO interfered with his planned shot...which was to face the opposite direction and bank his ball off a rock.  It was unclear how the TIO would have interfered with his follow through.  The rock he would use to bank his ball would have blocked any follow through.


Spieth, on the other hand, took an unplayable lie penalty under which one of his options was to go as far back as he liked, keeping the site of the unplayable lie between him and the hole.  The drop was complicated by the presence of the equipment trucks and the presence of the dune, which made it more difficult to determine when the spot was between him and the hole.


BTW, Spieth had a major championship on the line.  Sergio was trying to qualify for the Tour Championship.

Glen,


The similarity is, they both used options they never intended to hit from as justification for the drop. That's where they both went against the spirit of the game in my opinion....


Sergio ricocheting off the rock.
Spieth dropping in between equipment trucks.

[Pete_Pittock]

The rules specifically say that you are not obligated to play the shot that was intended if the result of the drop leaves you in a position to do otherwise,

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Kalen,


Perhaps I am wrong, but Spieth was seeking a level lie as close to the hole as possible...while keeping the spot of the unplayable lie between him and the hole.  He was entitled to that by taking a penalty stroke.


That took Spieth into the equipment trucks, which then meant finding the nearest relief.  He was not manufacturing a drop by the claiming to intend an implausible shot.  Did he gain anything from moving further to the right to gain relief from the equipment trucks?  I don't think so.  It made it more difficult for him to lay up into the fairway since he was hitting even more across the fairway as opposed to up the same line as the fairway.

[George Pazin]

Kalen,


Perhaps I am wrong, but Spieth was seeking a level lie as close to the hole as possible...while keeping the spot of the unplayable lie between him and the hole.  He was entitled to that by taking a penalty stroke.


That took Spieth into the equipment trucks, which then meant finding the nearest relief.  He was not manufacturing a drop by the claiming to intend an implausible shot.  Did he gain anything from moving further to the right to gain relief from the equipment trucks?  I don't think so.  It made it more difficult for him to lay up into the fairway since he was hitting even more across the fairway as opposed to up the same line as the fairway.

Nice post. It illustrates that there may be a lot of golfers out there, and a lot of reasonable people, but there are few reasonable golfers...


Kalen, you need to think more about treating like situations alike truly means. Those are not what Rules geeks would term like situations.

[Kalen Braley]

Glen,


That's not the entire story. If you revisit the coverage he had plenty of spots to drop it in a mostly level lie behind the dune, in the rough.  But Jordan seemed to be looking to gain an advantage, which he got by dropping between the trucks, declaring it unplayable and then getting relief to a premium lie in the driving range.

It was a violation of the spirit of the rules when he intentionally dropped the ball to a place he never had any intent of playing from...this was the gross exploitation... and this isn't even getting into the "play in a timely manner" spirit of the rules...

[Carl Nichols]

Glen,


That's not the entire story. If you revisit the coverage he had plenty of spots to drop it in a mostly level lie behind the dune, in the rough.  But Jordan seemed to be looking to gain an advantage, which he got by dropping between the trucks, declaring it unplayable and then getting relief to a premium lie in the driving range.

It was a violation of the spirit of the rules when he intentionally dropped the ball to a place he never had any intent of playing from...this was the gross exploitation... and this isn't even getting into the "play in a timely manner" spirit of the rules...

Are you sure he wouldn't have intended to play the ball from that place if the trucks weren't there?  It seemed as good a spot as where he ended up. 

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Kalen,


Just reviewed the video as you suggested.  The trucks are parked on the driving range...flat with short grass.  Forget the trucks for a second.  If you were in Spieth's position, would you drop the ball in the rough as opposed to moving back another 20 yards and dropping on short grass?  I sure wouldn't.  Facing a 200 yd + shot to the green, I would trade off 20 yards distance for short grass every time.


Spieth, making that same choice, went back to range, which put him among the trucks.  If there were not trucks there, he would have played it from there.  The subsequent relief from the trucks gave him no advantage relative to playing from where the trucks were (assuming they were not present).  In fact, moving further to the right gave him a poorer angle.


Spieth did not say he would play an implausible shot to get free relief, as Sergio did.  His drop from the truck obstruction left him no better off than if the trucks had not been there and he dropped on the first available portion of flat, tighly-mowed range.

[Matthew Petersen]

Glen,


That's not the entire story. If you revisit the coverage he had plenty of spots to drop it in a mostly level lie behind the dune, in the rough.  But Jordan seemed to be looking to gain an advantage, which he got by dropping between the trucks, declaring it unplayable and then getting relief to a premium lie in the driving range.

It was a violation of the spirit of the rules when he intentionally dropped the ball to a place he never had any intent of playing from...this was the gross exploitation... and this isn't even getting into the "play in a timely manner" spirit of the rules...

Are you sure he wouldn't have intended to play the ball from that place if the trucks weren't there?  It seemed as good a spot as where he ended up.

Yeah, I agree. The area where the trucks were was maintained range (probably fairway HOC) as well. That's where he would have wanted to play from. Most golfers would happily go back 10-20 more yards to play from a flat fairway lie vs. a "mostly" flat rough lie, especially given the sort of rough we're talking about and the length of shot JS had to play. Under the unplayable penalty he took, you are entitled to go back as far as you want on that line--there is absolutely nothing in the rules or the "spirit" of them to suggest he should have done anything other than what he did. Yes, it took a stupidly long time, but that's really not JS's fault as much as it is the general slowness of all pro ruling decisions, partly the result of folks at home watching on TV trying to play gotcha.

[Kalen Braley]

Glen and Carl,


I understand what you're saying, but the trucks were in fact present.  And he did in fact drop it in a place in which he had no intention of playing from. 

P.S.  If you read the rule....nowhere does it state that he's entitled to a good lie or a fairway lie when he uses the rule.  It only stipulates how the player can take a drop.  The fact that he exploited the situation to get an additional free drop is the point...





The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a.
Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b.
Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c.
Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.