[Thomas Dai]

These days most better players, at least those who use a standard length putter, seem to use a shoulders only/no wristiness putting stroke whereas back in yonder days most players putting strokes seem to have been being pretty wristy.

Published Stimp readings are a relatively recent thing, they were certainly not the norm a few decades ago, so does anyone have or know where to find any stats or figures, hopefully in tabulated form, of how height-of-cut has changed since say the 1960's or 1970's at major championships? For example, I read recently that the greens at the 1970 US Open were cut at about 5.5mm.

The other point to mention is the loft on putters. Pings from the 1970's/1980's used to have about 6* of loft. Once Scotty Camerons and Odyssey's and later Yes!'s came along lofts were more around the 3* mark so does this era mark a threshold of change?

Were there maintenance practices or maintenance equipment related reasons why change occurred at certain periods? Mowers/reel speed, blade etc effectiveness, more extensive top-dressing regimes, greater rolling etc.

Thoughts?
atb

[Jim Hoak]

I think all of what you say--and suppose as to the reasons--is probably true.  But a related question is whether it is a good thing.
I think that macho instincts have resulted in greens being too fast these days.  Classic greens are no longer usable at these speeds; time of rounds have been extended; and some of the joy of golf has been lost.   There's been the same attitude that has resulted in absurdly long courses--built for the people who play golf for a living vs. those of us who play it for fun.  Now it's a case of "my greens are faster than yours!"  As though that is prima facie a good thing.

[Eric LeFante]

Here is something I've seen on this site and elsewhere before:

[Ken Moum]

What you say about technique and equipment is true.  Although I think the technique change is only partly due to green speed.

In fact, back in 70s I completely changed my stroke from very wristy to one with no noticeable wrist action as a response to moving to a course with very slow greens, which were also huge compared to what I was used to.

I did it because it was the only way I could get a handle on speed control on putts over 30-40 feet.

But there is one thing you missed--Putters have gotten a lot heavier.

Compare a Ping Anser from the 70s to one of the new versions.  The heads have gone from ~300 grams to ~350 grams.  I am very aware of this as I can't putt worth a hoot with these heavier putters.

But this change only confirms the old story about measuring the swingweight of putters at Oakmont (IIRC) and finding that the members were using much heavier putters than average. It was a notable story because a lot of golfers believed that heavy putters were best on slow greens.

Truth is, it's harder to get the clubhead speed you need on slow greens with a heavy putter.

Right now, my brother who was using a long putter, has switched to a short version of the same club--with a 450-gram head.  And he's putting better than he did with the long putter.

[Ira Fishman]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jerry-tarde-long-grass


Article contains 1970s speeds for some additional courses.


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ken, you say.....


In fact, back in 70s I completely changed my stroke from very wristy to one with no noticeable wrist action as a response to......

I wonder if it had another thing to do with TV golf, i.e., Palmer and his wrist stroke was out, Nicklaus and others were beginning to use less wrist? I know it affected me.  Who knew how to putt in those days?

BTW, grooved faces on putters may be as significant improvement as new drivers in reducing score.  Ball rolls rather than skitters off the club face.

[Bob Montle]

Jeff:   That is so true.

The varying grooves on the evnroll putters not only get the ball rolling better but eliminate distance variations from heel or toe mishits.

I started using one a month ago and have dropped 5.5 putts per round from my old average.  It almost feels like cheating.
Sort of like when the first users of the gutta balls would beat them up to make them fly.  And next came dimples ...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bob,


My drop was similar, especially at the beginning when I was playing more.  Now, I have a lot of other stroke problems that have raised me back up to my normal mediocre putting.


I visited the "Kingdom" before the grand re-opening of La Costa Champions Course, then played with Steve Pate in the opening.  With my new putter, I one putted 11 times in a row, from 3 to 30 feet and actually won a few dollars from a tour pro!  (Second time that happened, first was handicap event where I won $5 from Steve Elkington.  Big thrill.

[Ken Moum]

Ken, you say.....


In fact, back in 70s I completely changed my stroke from very wristy to one with no noticeable wrist action as a response to......

I wonder if it had another thing to do with TV golf, i.e., Palmer and his wrist stroke was out, Nicklaus and others were beginning to use less wrist? I know it affected me.  Who knew how to putt in those days?

BTW, grooved faces on putters may be as significant improvement as new drivers in reducing score.  Ball rolls rather than skitters off the club face.

I don't recall thinking about any pros when I was trying to figure out a way to stop leaving myself so many long second putts.  I do know that in those days I rarely watched any amount of TV golf.  I didn't have a VCR then and I was usually at the golf course on weekends.


FWIW, I rarely run into anyone who uses the method I do. I don't think about anything except keeping my right hand moving through the ball with as little releease as I manage. I try my best to control distance solely with stroke length.


If I play on smaller greens a lot, I have a tendency to get sloppy and start using a short stroke for everything.  That failing was highlighted on my recent trip to Scotland.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ken,


Well, I Know my putting stroke changed with the general trends, highlighted by tour pros, and maybe Golf Digest or something.  Once a style becomes the newest in thing, you sure can get a lot of "you still use that?" looks.


Best putting lessons I ever got:


Use a grooved putter (Taylor Made Kingdom golf pro)


Dave Stockton (as a pro am partner) - There is no such thing as a read "on the lip, add up to 2", because the ball doesn't need to go into the front center of the hole on a breaking putt.


Hold your follow through (a la great photo of Crenshaw, still in pose, after sinking the 80 footer on Augusta 10) to encourage more follow through than backswing.  Pelz instructor


Pace your putts to know distance (Pelz instructor) and spend time on the putting green to know that a one inch back swing goes "X" feet, and you will find a 2" and 3" back swing will go 2x and 3x that distance.


"Take no backswing on this putt" A Pinehurst caddy on the 5th green of P2, when the pin was near the front left bunker)  Much better than his later advice that he "knew I was going to de-green the putt."  When?  "When I saw your putter move back."


And not really putting advice, but played Muirfield with Pete Dye who noticed I missed every putt left, leaving me to my own devices to figure out exactly why.  After the round, I was using the urinal when he walked in, refused to use the one next to me, reasoning, "You'll probably miss left on this one, too!"


Not really putting advice, but more urinal humor.....after playing with Fuzzy Zoellar in a pro am, we were using the urinals, sparking the comment, "This is the only place on this course you can say you held your own with me."

[Peter Pallotta]

I played recently what were for me/in my world a very fast and contoured set of greens. Luckily, as it turned out, I'd decided to put an old Bullseye putter back into the bag. I had a terrific putting day. It is so light and the sweet spot so small that you never have to worry about hitting a putt too hard and too far past -- even with the longer stroke its size and weight seems to encourage.
It also helps that, for each shot-type, I try to visualize a certain golfer, eg with drives, Els' tempo; from bunkers, Trevino's style; off the greens, Watson's moxie and Faldo's logic; and on the greens, Crenshaw's flowing pace and held follow-through, with the ball dying at the hole.
When equipment looks a certain way, it helps me play a certain way. All season long I've played persimmon woods, and have hardly ever over-swung badly; and with that more controlled swing (compared to the one I tend to have with modern toaster-oven drivers), I can't remember the last time I hit one out of bounds. Usually (but not always) shorter off the tee, but in the fairway a much greater percentage of the time.
PS - neat stories, Jeff - thanks. Winning 5 bucks off sweet-swinging Steve Elkington must've been a great feeling.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting figures posted above. Thank you.


What about maintenance practices and equipment, irrigation efficiency, quality of mowers, reel speed, top dressing regimes, rollers and the timing of the introduction ofparticular practices or new equipment or maintenance 'thinking' trends?


Atb

[Peter Flory]

I wonder if we sometimes underestimate the speed of the greens in the Golden Age. 

Here is a passage that I came across in American Golfer from 1923:

"Not the least of ones troubles is putting on the keen greens.  During a dry spell and towards the end of a championship the greens are apt to become as slippery as glass.  the ball will keep on rolling at the merest touch and when it has finished rolling it will appear to slide.  No inland green can become quite as slippery as the seaside green.  When the wind is in one of its merry moods and holding high revel you can see the ball shaking and shimmying so that you fear to address it, lest it begins to promenade on its own accord."

That is pretty specific and shows to me that they faced a variety of conditions, which occasionally included something similar to what we face today.   

[Ken Moum]

I wonder if we sometimes underestimate the speed of the greens in the Golden Age. 

Here is a passage that I came across in American Golfer from 1923:

"Not the least of ones troubles is putting on the keen greens.  During a dry spell and towards the end of a championship the greens are apt to become as slippery as glass.  the ball will keep on rolling at the merest touch and when it has finished rolling it will appear to slide.  No inland green can become quite as slippery as the seaside green.  When the wind is in one of its merry moods and holding high revel you can see the ball shaking and shimmying so that you fear to address it, lest it begins to promenade on its own accord."

That is pretty specific and shows to me that they faced a variety of conditions, which occasionally included something similar to what we face today.

In my 9+ years with GCSAA I had this conversation with some experienced supers, including one who had been taking Stimp readings for more than 30 years.  He simply said that the mowers of earlier eras weren't capable of being set low enough to achieve the speeds people have talked about.


But I still remembered putting off greens and having uphill putts turning around and coming back past me, sometimes off the green.


The logical side of me figured there HAD to an explanation.


Then I remembered how fast the winter greens at my home course in Topeka would get on downhill putts in the winter, when they weren't being mowed at all.  I also remembered how slow those same greens were on uphill putts.


What I finally concluded is that the super-slick greens of yesteryear had significant grain in them, but unlike bermudagrass, the grain always runs downhill.


There are also old stories about using heavy rollers to make greens smooth and fast. And we all know that rolling a green can speed it up without having to lower the height of cut.


In the end, I think those greens were much harder to putt well because uphill putts required a heck of a rap, while downhill ones could (COULD) be scarily fast.


K

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