[PCCraig]

Are consistently firm and fast conditions attainable in the absence of sandy soil?


What are the best examples of courses that play fast without sand?


What are the best ways to "speed up" a historically wet/slow golf course? Aggressively removing thatch? Topdressing fairways? "Turning off the water?" Removing trees and increasing airflow?


What are some of the best examples of firming up a golf course?


Does it really matter if a golf course plays firm and fast consistently?


Or are all the efforts and inputs that go into presenting a fast golf course (sand topdressing) unsustainable and too expensive for all but the wealthiest clubs?

[Tom_Doak]

There are not too many places where firm and fast is consistent regardless of weather.  If it's rainy, even the links courses slow down noticeably.


But if you're in a very dry northern climate, and you have access to water, you should be able to achieve firm and fast conditions nearly all the time the course is open, if you want to.  Australia is a good example.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Not really possible in the UK even on sandy soil. We get too much rain.


Not too many courses have irrigation on the fairways this side of the pond that helps the ball run in the summer, you can often get 50 yards from the first pitch, sometimes fairways can get very burnt up our managers sometimes mitigate the problem by raising the height of cut.


Quite a lot of courses have greens and approach sprinklers and so these areas are often softer.

[BCowan]

Flossmoor impressed me greatly. I'm told by Anthony that is a day in and out presentation weather permitting.  The keeper their is top shelf. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Totally uninformed question:

On a new course, if the official opening was delayed until, say, two years after all the grass had grown in and was ready for play, could a good and determined superintendent (not concerned for two full years with keeping members happy or even keeping the grass 'alive' and so never watering anything) change/develop the root structures and soil qualities in a way that would make firmer and faster conditions more likely down the road?
Don't think I'm explaining myself well or even if there's anything at all worth explaining, but hope the basic question is clear.
Peter

[JESII]

Huntingdon Valley has to be near the top of this list.

[James Brown]

Sure, at least in the summer.   When I was in grad school, I played the Penn State courses all summer and they would let them get very firm during drier years. 


Desert courses can be kept firm year round. 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Could they?  I think yes.  Would this scenario ever happen?  No.  99.9% of courses need to start generating cash ASAP.  Furthermore, even if a course was given two years to form the most ideal soil/root structure, once you throw play out there it would disrupt the balance.  For example, within the protected period the course could be irrigated whenever it is optimum to do so which would be during the day.  Once play hits, night.  You can't irrigate the golfers.  The increased compaction and wear from introducing golfers would reduce infiltration, and thus require increased irrigation to facilitate coverage and recovery.  The fertility programs would need to be increased to facilitate recovery from divots and wear. 

Totally uninformed question:

On a new course, if the official opening was delayed until, say, two years after all the grass had grown in and was ready for play, could a good and determined superintendent (not concerned for two full years with keeping members happy or even keeping the grass 'alive' and so never watering anything) change/develop the root structures and soil qualities in a way that would make firmer and faster conditions more likely down the road?
Don't think I'm explaining myself well or even if there's anything at all worth explaining, but hope the basic question is clear.
Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

Not really possible in the UK even on sandy soil. We get too much rain.

I don't agree with this, Adrian. Even with a lot of rain, quite a few links courses remain fiery, certainly compared to non-links courses around the world. It's all relative.


Poster child for f&f on non-sandy soil in the U.K. is Walton Heath....

[Thomas Dai]

Upland/downland courses in the UK tend to be relatively firm and fast throughout the year although they may have some softer areas where the soil is different.
The kind of terrain where sheep used to graze can be a clue.
Sheep don't like it wet underfoot so inland farmers would graze them where it was both driest and where the land was least suitable for growing crops.
atb

[Sean_A]

Not really possible in the UK even on sandy soil. We get too much rain.

I don't agree with this, Adrian. Even with a lot of rain, quite a few links courses remain fiery, certainly compared to non-links courses around the world. It's all relative.


Poster child for f&f on non-sandy soil in the U.K. is Walton Heath....

Even Walton Heath can get very sloppy in the winter...none of the heathlands hold up that well compared to links.  I agree with you Ally, it is all relative.  As ATB suggests, think of where sheep graze and it will be decent draining land.  In my experience, Kington, which is sort of a moorland type course, is the best draining non-sandy course I know. When it rains, and it does rain like the dickens at Kington, the course can hold water for a short period. The fairways dry out very quickly, but the greens can get soft because of the thatch.  The club has been working on drainage for some greens.   


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Not really possible in the UK even on sandy soil. We get too much rain.

I don't agree with this, Adrian. Even with a lot of rain, quite a few links courses remain fiery, certainly compared to non-links courses around the world. It's all relative.


Poster child for f&f on non-sandy soil in the U.K. is Walton Heath....

I suppose its all relative to what you think firm and fast is. No UK course is firm and fast from Nov 1st to March 1st unless its frozen. To me if its a vivid green it cant be F&F in the strict sense. Fiery is when an iron shot bounces and you aim 20 yards short of the green, but I guess its just the interpretation of F&F. I reckon 300+ days in the UK per year you can hit a 7 iron into a green and it stops. I would say 150+ days you get 25 plus yards of roll on your drive.

[Sam Krume]

My old home course Epsom Downs is consistently firm. This is due to being on chalk , being up on the tip if the Downs. It is only 3.6 miles from WH as the crow flies but it lies on totally different ground

[Ally Mcintosh]

Part of the problem is I play with clubs which haven't had their grooves cleaned in 15 years. No spin. Adds to firm and fast conditions which adds to strategy.


I like to think of it as a purist's decision on my part.


Instead of laziness, which is what it really is.

[MClutterbuck]

The Confidential Guide Volume II has a list of courses with the fastest fairways. The second course on the list behind Cal Club is not sand based.


I believe the most important factors are:


- Commitment to maintain firm and fast conditions even if members question the lack of green
- Dry weather during the season
- Fescue fairways
- Good surface drainage
- Wind


 

[Joe Bausch]

Huntingdon Valley has to be near the top of this list.

Agreed.  I played there in June of this summer and there had been a good amount of rain the days before in our area.  But HVCC was still pretty firm.

Here is an updated photo album that also includes the 'C' nine, which has had some work done on it by Andrew Green:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/HuntingdonValley/index.html

[JESII]

HVCC gets back to firm after some rain quicker than any non-links course I've ever seen.

[BHoover]

Springfield CC in Ohio is the best I have seen in this regard. It plays consistently firm and fast.


Windsong Farm in Minnesota also typically plays firm and fast...but not as much as Springfield.

[Kyle Harris]

Sure, at least in the summer.   When I was in grad school, I played the Penn State courses all summer and they would let them get very firm during drier years. 


Desert courses can be kept firm year round.

The White Course in the drought of 2002 was life-changing for me in terms of understanding Maintenance Meld and Architecture.

[PCCraig]

Sure, at least in the summer.   When I was in grad school, I played the Penn State courses all summer and they would let them get very firm during drier years. 


Desert courses can be kept firm year round.

The White Course in the drought of 2002 was life-changing for me in terms of understanding Maintenance Meld and Architecture.

How so?

[MClutterbuck]

Droughts and/or problems with irrigation force the Super to work with little or no water and observe how the course responds. It forces to make decisions as to what to irrigate and what not or how often.


You start to learn how resilent some grasses are to no water. It makes you realize that even morning dew only might be enough in late summer. You start realizing that the 8mm per day that the consulting agronomist calculated at inception can really be 8mm every 3 days.


We had that experience due to a problem in the irrigation reservoir and indeed we completely changed irrigation for the next season, using half the amount of water. And water is free for us.

[Kirk Gill]

Fiery is when an iron shot bounces and you aim 20 yards short of the green, but I guess its just the interpretation of F&F.

I've played on many a course that is hard - not really "firm and fast." The ball makes an amazing THOK sound when it lands on the green.......and bounces off the back.

[mike_malone]

I played HVCC today.  It was the softest I had ever seen the greens but it was still off the charts sensationally conditioned.

[Jon Wiggett]

Big thing in the UK is little to no irrigation and getting the deep drainage right. Too many of our courses are trying to stay green even in the mid summer and mid winter month. Too much growth leads to thatchy, soft conditions.


Jon

[Phil McDade]

Flossmoor impressed me greatly. I'm told by Anthony that is a day in and out presentation weather permitting.  The keeper their is top shelf.

This is right on; a course that should be studied by those who want F&F conditions on Midwest soils.

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